We explore the phenomenon of cultural speciation - when cultures fragment into distinct new cultures. We discuss why groups feel most hostility towards similar groups, the role of cultural isolation, threats to young movements, Catholic orders as cultural "stem cells", and more.

Malcolm: [00:00:00] Are you saying

Simone: that you're saying that Catholicism is a nepo baby?

Malcolm: Catholicism is a nepo baby.

Malcolm: It's a nepo baby of the Roman empire.

Simone: I mean,

Malcolm: we. So, I mean, there's many reasons why Constantine may have chosen. I mean, obviously, there's a reason he gave, but a lot of historians think that what was actually going on there is he really liked the Catholic Church as an alternate administrative unit that already had centers set up throughout the Roman Empire, which allowed him to To implement many reforms.

Malcolm: Administration

Simone: in a

Malcolm: box. Yeah, it was like an administration in a box that allowed him to compete with the deep state

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm: Hello, Simone. How's it

Simone: going? Very good, Malcolm. I thought today we might talk a little bit about your theories on cultural speciation. In other words, how cultures split off into new entirely separate cultures.

Malcolm: Yeah, so this is really important for us to talk about because we talk about the evolution of cultures a lot on this channel. [00:01:00] Yeah. The idea that cultures can be thought of as an evolving software sitting on top of our genetically prescribed sociological predilections, which is our hardware.

Malcolm: And so, So what's really cool about cultural speciation events is one. We can see them in real time all around us. And two, by studying them and by looking at them, we can get a better understanding of why people, one, do something that appears very weird in the moment, and, and two, the long term consequences of this action and why it's important to like the development of human societies and why we might even be genetically coded and why we To do this action that can seem really weird because it leads to faster cultural evolution, right?

Malcolm: Right. So this is, we're going to talk about what we call the Judean people's front problem. And this is from the Monty Python movie, the life of Brian, because it's a great example of this. There's this [00:02:00] little group of four people who are the Judean people's front. And this was about like the anti Roman.

Malcolm: Jewish groups that were really common in Rome around the time of Jesus because this was just a thing in Rome. You want, actually, if you want to see more about this, you can watch this show, Rome. That's what it's called, right? The, the serial. Yeah. That was an APL. Oh, it's so good. It's so good.

Simone: So,

Malcolm: So I'll just do the skit because I'd like to put it here or I'll, you know, we'll have a link to it, but we'll get copyright strike if we do it.

Malcolm: But essentially there's, there's like a small group of people in the, in the Coliseum. Another guy comes up to them. He's trying to join their group. He's Oh, I'd really to join the Judean people's front. And they're like, are you sure you want to join? And they, they're like, you got to really hate the Romans to join us.

Malcolm: And he's Oh yeah, I really hate the Romans. And then they're like, the only thing we hate more than the. Romans is the people's front of Judea and then the guy goes, I thought we were the people's front of Judea.

Malcolm: And they go, no, we're the Judean people's front and he goes, oh yeah, I hate the people's front of Judea. Oh. And of course the popular [00:03:00] front of Judea and he's who's the popular for that guy over there? And it's one guy sitting alone. And what you see there is what we call a cultural speciation event and the key aspect of a cultural speciation event.

Malcolm: It's typically you see this one more with younger dynamic cultures, but you see it across all cultures where the highest amount of animosity and the highest amount of thinking about how you are different from people is about the groups that you are most similar to, not the groups you are most different from.

Malcolm: So. A great place that you can see this if you're familiar with the effective altruists or the rationalists or the less wrong communities is between those communities, you know, the effective altruists and then you've got teapot Twitter and then you've got you know, the post rats, the post rationalists and broadly, these people have a lot of the same views on the world, but they are really obsessed with how, oh, well, I'm not exactly a rationalist.

Malcolm: I'm part of this group. Like they're much more interested in these. Yeah. Subdivisions of the groups. [00:04:00] And these are all the things that I think the rational against wrong, the rationalistic is wrong. And that's why I really hate them. Or these are all the things I think effective altruistic gets wrong. In fact, I'd say it's almost like a, being a hipster.

Malcolm: The way you could tell somebody is like basically an effective altruist is if they have a 30 minute rant about why they hate effective altruists and they're not an effective altruist. Because if you care enough to have that, then, okay, yes, you're culturally adjacent enough to the effective altruist that you're basically an effective altruist.

Malcolm: Yeah. So, but this is, this is really important because you see this across groups. And so what's happening here? Like, why would you have the highest amount of animosity for the people who are most similar to you? So, one, I think that the layperson's assumption is going to be, well, I guess you would interact with that group more, or...

Malcolm: You know, you think about them more, but if that's true, then you should get to know them better and have less of a visceral hatred of them often. So I think what's actually happening is two things. One, you cannot have cultural [00:05:00] speciation. Now, speciation is where a new species splits off, unless you can have cultural isolation.

Malcolm: And so instinctively, and one, faster cultural evolution would have helped a population group outcompete other population groups because their cultures would become better over time faster. So you might have actually an instinctual thing within a human to, when a cultural group begins to split, to begin to feel animosity for the people across that cultural divide.

Malcolm: Two, you, because if you don't have that, you're going to have people moving back and forth across this divide a lot, which will prevent the groups from actually splitting. And now that people can be in like these online environments where they can, without really any cost, just sit around and indolently masturbate an emotional instinct that they have, you will get people who basically spend their entire day.

Malcolm: Online hating on cultural groups that are very, very similar to them. I think that's what basically the subreddit stinger club can be thought of. Is, is people who maybe have a slightly higher emotional output and addiction [00:06:00] pathway to this form of emotional masturbation. And so they just spend all of their time doing it to the rationalist community or the EA community or whatever.

Malcolm: So it's, it's, it's really fascinating to me. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on cultural asphyxiation and you know, have you seen it, like, where have you related to it?

Simone: Yeah, I mean, where I've seen it most, I think, is in fan communities. You'll see all these different sub genres come out and people, I, I think it more comes from, A dominance hierarchy fight than anything else.

Simone: I understand that there, that isolation plays a key role, but I think the reason why you do get cultural speciation is that in these little subsets, you get people fighting to be the best and fighting to be the best often involves saying, here's my interpretation of our values. Here's my interpretation of what we should be doing or focusing on or what it means to be the best in our group.

Simone: And then someone else decides or figures out that they can reach the top of the dominance hierarchy as well by saying, Oh, no, no, no. The rules are [00:07:00] different. Here's actually how you signal that you're the best. Here's actually the values that we should be optimizing around. And that causes the split. And then there's a ton of animosity, of course, because they both claim to be Supporting the same thing.

Simone: Maybe it's a fandom, maybe it's a religion, maybe it's a political cause, maybe it's rationalism or effective altruism. But they have very different virtue signaling and value and how do we allocate our time prescriptions. And so that causes a lot of resentment between the group, but also a ton of confusion.

Simone: And I think the life of Brian Skitt is funny because also people have a lot of trouble keeping it straight in the beginning. And it does take, like you say, that high level of cultural isolation to actually turn into a speciation event. So if you are, for example, all just knocking about Rome being political activists, there's going to be a lot of confusion and you're not actually going to be, become separate, distinct cultures or groups.

Simone: But if it is possible for one of those groups to isolate, spin off, geographically go to a different area or become [00:08:00] so different that they. don't even bear like an easy resemblance, then, then you get

Malcolm: the speciation. Yeah. So then the question is, how do you protect a new movement against this? Because young movements are really susceptible to this.

Malcolm: Okay,

Simone: but hold on. So why, I'm interested in why you would say that we want to protect movements from that, because I think you've also argued in the Pragmatist Guide to Crafting Religion, that some very long lasting... religions slash cultures have used this like sort of

Malcolm: species. Yeah. So I'll, I'll word this differently.

Malcolm: Okay. Okay. When I say, how do we protect a culture against it? It's a bit like saying, how do we protect humanity from their own greed and selfishness? And the answer is capitalism. I believe that this instinct can be utilized to make a culture stronger. However, and, and, and you've talked about how that happens.

Malcolm: However, it is an incredible threat. To young groups, especially young groups that have a lot of intelligent males in them, [00:09:00] because these males will, for the reason you said, constantly try to split the group so that they can be at the top of this new hierarchy they formed. One of the reasons why young males often choose these niche communities to identify with is through this identification.

Malcolm: They can be at the top of their local hierarchy just because it's such a small hierarchy or or at least they're not far from the top of their local hierarchy. And I think a lot of men just genetically are unwilling to engage with a group where they are far from the top of the hierarchy especially young men.

Malcolm: And so I think that that drives a lot of this. And I think it's also why you have this culture of you know, we call them evanescent cultures. These are cultures that are specifically. Evolved to target youth and then they disappear after you leave a youth stage where kids will join this wide diversity of youth cultural groups like goths or something like that, which then quickly disappear.

Malcolm: And we can have another episode on evanescent cultural groups because they're very interesting and they have broadly the same characteristics across generations, but they wear different faces. And it's, it's, [00:10:00] it's useful to know about if you're a young kid going into them. So here's what I think we do, and this is, we actually largely delineate this in the pragmatist's guide to crafting religion but it is to say, so first, identify the threat, the threat is, is that the cultural group becomes so fragmented, like I would say happened to the rationalist community, that it's not able to stay around as a cohesive community that's able to offer people like a support network, so you get this exogenous reasons to join, which I think is really, Important for groups that are going to last intergenerationally.

Malcolm: So the way that you do it is you encourage the competition and you flag the competition as, as sort of meaningful, but insofar as people don't dissociate with the umbrella group. So by that, what I mean is you can say, I am this. I'm this culture within this, this cultural umbrella, and I'm this culture within this cultural umbrella.

Malcolm: And then what you do is you create clear metrics for the cultures to compete with each other. So, you know, [00:11:00] within our family office structure, essentially this is done and within the larger index framework. This is done where. You say, okay, you want to choose to be a different cultural group. Well, then if you outcompete, then you get more voting power in the family office where outcompeting is defined as either converting lots of people to your faction, having lots of kids and having those kids stay within the culture intergenerationally and choose to have a lot of kids themselves.

Malcolm: So it's giving you concrete. Success metrics, which through continuing to adhere to bind you to the central organization. And what's really fascinating about these concrete success metrics is if somebody's well, I don't believe in that set of success metrics. I don't want to compete along that set of success metrics.

Malcolm: Well, then they don't matter anymore anyway, because they won't exist in the future. If they have chosen a culture that's either not optimized around intergenerational cultural transfer. Fertility or conversion, then they're not going to exist in the future. So it doesn't [00:12:00] matter that they have become dissident.

Malcolm: Hmm.

Simone: So then in other words, if you wanted to advise EA effective altruism, if it could be a cohesive community and it's not, so it's not like there's some leader that could do this really, but if you wanted to prevent EA from fracturing to a point of dysfunction, you would find some way to sort of centrally acknowledge the various factions.

Malcolm: So I would build them a governance model that would use a similar triumvirate model to the index, but a bit different. So essentially you'd have three groups that would each elect a member. And then those three members would have to unanimously vote on sort of like a dictator of the organization.

Malcolm: And this would be the central effective altruist fund that they would be electing the dictator for the three groups. Voting patterns would be one group was based on how much an individual donated to the central fund or, or, and then a lesser. Voting amount for how much they personally like work.

Malcolm: responsible for [00:13:00] raising for the funds. You might get like half a point for every dollar you raised and a full point for every dollar you donated. Right. And so that would be the people who are functionally able to outcompete in terms of fundraising. They would be one voting block was in the organization.

Malcolm: Another block was in the organization. Could be the number of people that you have converted to being effective altruists and dedicating themselves to effective altruists. So this could be everyone that you've got to donate at least a specific amount. So say 10, 000, you consider that somebody who has become an effective altruist, and then you're looking.

Malcolm: Lifestyle wise, how many people are living this? So this one is focused on conversion, like human outreach. And then the final voting block, which I think is important within any government is made up of all of the past dictators. So it would be like a branch of our government that was made up of only past presidents.

Malcolm: And I think that that organization, the way it's structured, would intrinsically grow in both the amount of money it had, And the way that people were socially politicking was in it because you're creating an environment where the way people like [00:14:00] cheat in the social politics only helps the end goals of the organization.

Malcolm: Now, of course, the problem with all of this is, is nothing in that structure rewards actual effective giving. Why didn't I choose to reward that? It's because I think. That effective giving can always be manipulated, what that means and it can be used to allow groups to cheese the organization. And so what you should always focus on if they cheese it, you win at the end of the day, is things that cause the organization to centralize and grow when cheesed.

Simone: But I also would love for you to touch on the way, for example, the Catholic Church has spun off, essentially, skunk work subcultures.

Malcolm: For church is really unique and really interesting. It is the oldest I would argue continuing successful cultural group that I am aware of, but that is like genuinely successful.

Malcolm: So a lot of people would think like Jews are like an older cultural group, but the truth is Jews have undergone so many cultural reinventions [00:15:00] over the time period the Catholic Church has been around. That I don't know if I would call them a continuous cultural group, it's more that they are a, a, a quickly evolving cultural group, but they are not continuous in the same way the Catholics have been typically an organization like the Catholic Church would collapse due to internal cancers.

Malcolm: By that, what I mean is if you look at our model of governance and stuff like that, the longer a governance structure has been around, or the larger a bureaucracy is. The more it is susceptible to internal cancers in which a small population within an organization begin to self replicate and just say, give me more money, give me more money, give me more money.

Malcolm: I'm actually really important. An example of this could be like, orgs within a company or something like that, right? They like a cancer. They redirect blood flow to themselves and they just get bigger and bigger like that until an organization basically dies, like this lumbering, wheezing beast.

Malcolm: And, and that can happen either due to how long it's been around as anyone. You know, who knows? Biology knows the longer lived in entity is the more prone to this cancer. And, and [00:16:00] so, you know, in like whales and elephants, you have really specific cancer preventing things, but also the, the bigger an animal is the more prone to this cancer.

Malcolm: Again, whales and elephants there, but in turtles, you have special cancer. Protecting mechanisms that are like really juiced up because of their long lifespan. Well, no, I mean, this is just a thing, right? So, the Catholic Church has one of those as well. It has a really powerful one of those. But it also has a really powerful...

Malcolm: This isn't to say that it hasn't become cancer riddled in the past. But then the Protestants split out of it and had a competitor again and it had to get good again. It couldn't just rely on its size to perpetuate it into the future. But then the other big problem that Catholics have, that all religions have, is typically the younger a religion is, the harder it is, and the older it is, the softer it is.

Malcolm: So, by this what we mean, when we talk about a soft religion, It's a religion that has thrown away most of the things that other its members from the general population, and it's thrown [00:17:00] away most of the things that make it hard to practice ah, man, you know, that's a hard thing. Let's not do that anymore.

Malcolm: So, you know when somebody says like I'm a spiritual Christian they've reached such a soft iteration of Christianity That they are no longer even recognizable as a Christian anymore as a specific Christian denomination, they've lost that part of their identity.

Malcolm: When you look at the groups that most differentiate themselves, they're usually pretty young. So you're looking at like Mormons are a pretty young cultural group. Hasidic Jews are a pretty young cultural group. Amish are... One of the older hard cultural groups I can think of, but still fairly young.

Malcolm: So, Scientology would be a very young cultural group, but also very hard cultural group. Yeah, back to the Catholic Church. I mean, How did the Catholic Church stay hard ish and not get soft? Right? That's an interesting question. So what they essentially did is they Spun out new young cultural groups, like sort of skunk work facilities, and that's what the orders are like the [00:18:00] Franciscans, et cetera.

Malcolm: And if you study the Catholic church, you will notice a pattern with these orders is they first start and they're like. All of the dissonant ultra extreme intellectuals who want to go really hard within the Catholic Church, they'll join the order and then the order grows, it grows in power within the church, it grows in size within the church, and it eventually becomes incredibly wealthy, incredibly opulent, and then it dies out, and then new orders form but what's really cool is through encouraging this process, the Catholic Church is able to essentially. Take a syringe, remove people from these, these little cultured groups of hard culture and re inject them into the center of the organization, and by this I mean the Vatican, and stay much younger as an organization, almost like they're sort of taking it Stem cell colonies and re injecting them to stay young much longer than you could otherwise stay young as an organization.

Malcolm: But in other words, you're

Simone: saying the catholic church is basically leveraging dynamics of [00:19:00] speciation But in a way that gives it control. So while the triumvirate model that you proposed for a modern young group that would maybe be a little bit concerned about factioning into separate competing pieces, they could also theoretically do with the Catholic

Malcolm: church.

Malcolm: The reason I don't suggest the Catholic model is the Catholic model is a model that like naturally evolved in a large organization that largely became large because the Roman Empire sort of borrowed it to help its administration of a region that had already been conquered. And and let's be honest, it did not do a great job.

Malcolm: After the Catholic Church became essentially the administrative capacity for the Roman Empire, it began to collapse almost immediately. So it's something that, that one, did not work in its initial iteration very well. Two, it, it's, it's managed to stay alive. It's managed to do okay. But it has never been like.

Malcolm: Exceptional. A Catholic [00:20:00] majority country has never been. I would consider super, super awesome in terms of like technological advancement or anything like that. It does better than it should, given how hierarchical it is, given how long lived it is, it is genuinely miraculous. And really impressive and it may be the iteration of humanity that ends up surviving because of this older advanced system.

Malcolm: It's using allows it to live into the future, but it's certainly not an ideal system and it requires. That it be set up in an already giant organization. So, it's a model that I might suggest if I tomorrow was dictator of the U. S. And I needed to find a way to keep American culture stable and surviving into the future.

Malcolm: I'd be like, okay, let's build Americana cultural nodes and begin to... But if I'm talking about a culture that's growing from scratch, no, I, I do not think it's a very strong strategy. Hmm. Okay. I mean, you can understand why, right? If you're starting with just like a collection of families, like the index, like our [00:21:00] cultural group, you, you can't spin out these like skunkworks facilities. You just don't have the resources to, and you don't have the population to.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah. No, that checks out. So it's just something that you need a little bit more, more age to

Malcolm: do. Yeah. And I, and again, we, we are remarking on the Catholic church is still around and broadly competent.

Malcolm: But I wouldn't say that it's ever been an exceptional. It's never been yeah, it's never been in an exceptional majority religious group.

Catholicism has an interesting feature that I don't think I've seen in any other cultural group, which is that when Catholics are a minority population in a country or geographic environment, they tend to really out-compete other groups, uh, especially within bureaucracies. So, you know, you can see this in the United States with Catholics making up the majority [00:22:00] of the Supreme court.

You can see this. In the United States with Catholics being the dominant intellectual voices in the conservative movement, other than people, the Jewish cultural group, which are the other really dominant, conservative, intellectual voice. Um, But when the Catholics make up the majority of a country, Uh, that country overall, typically underperforms both intellectually and economically. It doesn't perform terribly. It just performs very mid, I guess I would say, um, And this is also true if you look at the world stage. So, uh, you know, a disproportionate number of world-leading intellectuals come out of the Catholic cultural tradition. However, very few of them are coming from Catholic majority countries. than maybe Ireland, Ireland might be the exception here. If anyone has any ideas on what might be causing this, uh, I I'd love to hear it because I think it's a very interesting phenomenon.

Malcolm: And it's never been a really good at out competing except in South America. Are you saying

Simone: that you're saying that Catholicism is a nepo baby? [00:23:00]

Malcolm: Catholicism is a nepo baby.

Malcolm: It's a nepo baby of the Roman empire.

Simone: I mean,

Malcolm: we. So, I mean, there's many reasons why Constantine may have chosen. I mean, obviously, there's a reason he gave, but a lot of historians think that what was actually going on there is he really liked the Catholic Church as an alternate administrative unit that already had centers set up throughout the Roman Empire, which allowed him to To implement many reforms.

Malcolm: Administration

Simone: in a

Malcolm: box. Yeah, it was like an administration in a box that allowed him to compete with the deep state. So, think of it like this, right? Imagine you wanted to replace the American deep state, but you don't have communication lines like we do now, you don't have the internet like you do now.

Malcolm: How would you conceivably do that if, if, if the old state sort of is antagonistic to you and you want to do deeper forms where you've got to find an alternate governance system that somehow already set up throughout your empire the church, he was like, great borrowing that it was a really. Actually [00:24:00] very clever move.

Malcolm: But you know, as we can see, long term it didn't work out. Although maybe it did work out, it worked out for the Catholic church because the Catholic church is, is still around. But you know, they, they did get stomped by a number of they got stomped by the growing Islamic empire, which you know, and its height did, did better than the Catholic Empire in its height in terms of, of scientific advancement.

Malcolm: In terms of this, the size of the administrative empire they were running, but they also collapsed much faster. I mean, again, this is what I'm saying. The true genius of the Catholic church is its resistance to collapse.

Simone: Interesting. Well, I enjoyed this conversation. I don't know. I don't know how practical it will be for groups to prevent. themselves from splitting once they're already big and complex. But what I can say is if you find yourself part of a split, [00:25:00] just make sure that your new split has a strong governing model that prepares for this dynamic, because it is likely inevitable so long as there are dominance fights within it.

Simone: So anything you'd add?

Malcolm: Well, I don't know. I mean, I'll also add that the, the, a culture is a fad if you're not intending to raise your kids within it. If the culture is about how you make friends, it's a fad. You know, it's, it will not exist intergenerationally. Almost no culture that was dedicated to that has existed intergenerationally.

Malcolm: Yeah, fair. Cool. I love you, Simone. I have had so much fun talking to

Simone: you. I love you too, Malcolm. I'm looking forward to our next conversation already.

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