Malcolm and Simone explain why they intentionally court controversy to spread awareness of demographic collapse, even though it can be costly. Controversy acts as "human clickbait" to draw attention, then their genuine wholesomeness converts people to the cause. They share examples of how negativity actually validates ideas to conservative/moderate audiences. Though they lose friends and receive hate, demographic collapse is now mainstream. Using themselves as "meme fodder" pierces bubbles, like how Trump used media bias through controversy. Spreading ideas through hate is effective, but know the personal reputation costs. In the end, saving humanity is worth some family sacrifice.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Now, this issue, because it counters the mainstream narratives around what people should care about, is considered a right wing issue.

That's, that's not, I think, necessarily because it's a right wing issue, it's because the left control all centers of power today, so if you are saying anything that challenges the dominant narrative within society, you are considered a far right activist within today's, informational ecosystem. So we're like, okay, we can use this to our advantage. In fact, negativity, the press shows us in a way that's us with conservative and moderate. Audiences, they see skepticism about reasonable causes as validation of those causes, realism, efficacy, and, and grassroots nature

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: You look like you're actually in some kind of equivalent of a man cave, just like sitting there in the darkness. And like, here I am with my candles over there and the, you know, windows and like, there you are. It looks like

Malcolm Collins: it's two different times [00:01:00] a day in our two areas. We're in different

Simone Collins: time zones.

Malcolm Collins: But I do like my man caves. You know that. I love the dark.

Simone Collins: Yeah, you love the darkness. And like defensible corners, you know? Like, Yes, yes. You gotta know

Malcolm Collins: defensibility is important to me in terms of being comfortable in a room. Yeah, even if we're

Simone Collins: like sitting down at a restaurant, you're gonna want the defensible

Malcolm Collins: seat.

Well, you know, that's what so much of feng shui really is. It's just defensibility.

Simone Collins: Hmm. And

Malcolm Collins: that's why it feels like it works for people because what they're really sensing is how defensible is the space I'm looking at. I mean, I think a lot of aesthetics fall into this category as well. That is a very interesting take.

When people are like, I like this view and it's like, well, what type of views do you like? You know, it's like, well, I like a view where I can see a long way. And there's water, like streams present so it's like, oh, so what you like is a freshwater supply in a highly defensible area where you're on some sort of high ground, [00:02:00] right?

And they're like, no, no, no, no, I also like other views, like, I love views of the ocean. It's like, oh, okay. So you love views of an area where you have you know, a lot of food and, and likely you know, so much of human aesthetics and human pre programming, it's just around defensibility and the things that would have

Simone Collins: caused Will I survive here?

And Yeah. Yeah, that includes both, will I survive if someone tries to attack me, and also, are there natural resources here that will sustain me? And that's beautiful. Hooray!

Malcolm Collins: But we want to talk about something else today, not about human evolution, which is one of our big things!

Simone Collins: But instead, we will talk about one of the things that has been most controversial about our general strategy.

With our non profit very, very controversial.

Malcolm Collins: Which is being intentionally courting controversy. Yeah. Intentionally courting controversy. So why, why do we do this? Why do we intentionally court [00:03:00] controversy? Because a lot of people see this. We've been called, what it was, that Sony documentary on us. It was like, they're human memes or something?

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, like walking

Malcolm Collins: A lot of people just, just for a bit of a background, if you're watching this channel and you're looking at the subscriber count and you're like, you know, I feel like I see these people in the news a lot. Why isn't their subscriber count higher? It's because this channel was dormant when most of our media coverage happened.

So obviously if you look at this channel, you'll see stuff from like 15 years ago, right? Simone used this a lot when she was younger. We had a period where we revived it for a bit, but it hadn't been used in like three or four years. Yeah. When we were, you know, whether it was on Piers Morgan or whether it was on Chris Williamson or whether it was, you know, had the front page piece on us and in the Telegraph or the front page piece on us in the National Post or that big viral insider piece or the elite couple breeding to save mankind piece.

All of that happened when this channel was dormant. If this channel had been active during that period, we would have caught all of that. And this got us to a stance where we're like, [00:04:00] okay, well, we need to reactivate the channel again so we can catch all of that. But we have had, multiple periods where to an extent for different ends, we needed to court a level of controversy to promote something that was of short term utility to us.

The first time we really went viral that a lot of people are familiar with is the Reddit proposal. Which what was the, the old internet magazine that ran it at the most romantic moment of the year? Oh yeah, that was nice. This was Upward? Up?

Simone Collins: I don't know, one of the many bankrupt internet magazines out there.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it was whatever the main one was back then. And, you know, No, the Daily Dot did a piece on us. Mashable did a piece on us. PC Magazine did a piece on us. But this was Anyway, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. This is when we were proposing, and I didn't boast because I know Simone while she doesn't like personally interacting with people or humans in public, she doesn't mind human [00:05:00] attention on the internet.

And so that was my I wanted

Simone Collins: a grand public display, but I also didn't want to be in public. So you nailed it, Malcolm. But it was

Malcolm Collins: also something that I could use to leverage the launch of our first company, Art Corgi, which went through 500 startups. And, you know, we, we, we, we got VC funding for it. It didn't end up working out, but we didn't ever raise that much for us.

So we didn't put too many people out. But that was something where we were like, okay, and that was also in part an experiment for us because we had somebody who had told us before as people know, we go to a bunch of secret society things. And at one, I was like, well, you can intentionally create a viral event.

And they go, no, you can't. This person was a marketing expert. They were seen as one of the world experts in marketing. And I was like no, you absolutely can. And they're like, no, you don't understand. I'm one of the world experts in marketing and you're just some idiot kid who's in graduate school right now.

Right. And I was like, screw you. I'm going to do it. But there was an element of pride in doing that as well. This is [00:06:00] all

Simone Collins: because someone told you you couldn't do a thing.

Malcolm Collins: What you don't, you got to learn that with our kids, Simone, don't tell them they can't do things. Okay. Because they will desperately try to do all of those things.

But then there's the second thing, which is this second, more recent pronatalist virality that we've had. And I'd point out that literally the human being on earth. With the largest platform, the largest platform of any human on earth, more wealth, more power than probably any human has had in human history, Elon Musk, has been pushing for people caring about birth rates long before we did.

Okay? He created almost no sustained buzz around this. People were like, oh, it's weird that he's talking about this and a VC here or there began to care about it, but it did not enter the mainstream narrative. We came at this in where we created a website around this. And we're like so a lot of people don't know how [00:07:00] the website actually came to be.

We had this one year where we're like, okay, we are going to blue sky how we can change the world in a positive direction. And what we were looking for was arbitrage areas. So we were looking for areas where. We could do a project where no competent people were working, but that were either like real big and real, like severe human problems or yeah, that was it.

And we came up with So we

Simone Collins: created our list of like, here are the things that we know are existential threats to humanity. Obviously, Demographical Ops was on there ever since he worked in South Korea. There were a bunch of other things, though, too.

Malcolm Collins: There were lots of other things. The other one that was on there was education reform.

That no competent person was working in education reform. Oh yeah, where we

Simone Collins: didn't find, yeah, anyone else working on it. And then

Malcolm Collins: the final one that didn't end up becoming a big project of ours was the panspermia initiative. So this was, I was like, okay, if you care about, like, nature and the environment, All right.

So what [00:08:00] makes nature in the environment good? Like diversity, right? Like it's the diversity of ecology that gives it this intrinsic value. When people are like, I'm mad that species are going extinct there. I mean, there's idiots who are like, I want to freeze all species in their place in the world today, right now.

And nothing can ever change or evolve. But for the group, that's

Simone Collins: natural

Malcolm Collins: retarded.

Everybody knows you never go full retard. You ain't full retard, man. Never go full retard.

Malcolm Collins: Are we allowed to say retarded again? I

Simone Collins: don't know. I think, I think, yeah, the hard, the hard R is coming back.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. People who aren't retarded because nobody uses it to mean people with like mental disabilities anymore.

No, it just means like who are retarded.

We are really trying to understand this. How is it that you boys think referring to gay people as fags in today's world is acceptable? Because we're not referring to gay people. You can be gay and not be a fag. Yeah, a lot of fags aren't gay. [00:09:00] I happen to be gay, boys. Do you think I'm a fag? Do you ride a big loud Harley and go up and down the streets ruining everyone's nice time?

No. Then you're not a fag. So what if a guy is gay and rides a Harley? Then he's a gay fag! I mean, is this really this hard? I don't know. This is f*****g ridiculous. Alright, look, you're driving in your car, okay? And you're waiting to make a left at a traffic signal. The light turns yellow, should be your turn to go, but the traffic coming at you just keeps coming.

And even when the light turns red, a guy in a BMW runs the red light so you can't make your left turn. What goes through your mind? Fag. Right! But you're not thinking, oh, he's a homosexual. You're thinking, oh, he's an inconsiderate douchebag like a Harley rider. This, this is making insanely good sense to me.

Simone Collins: Right. Oh God, there's

Malcolm Collins: So what they actually care about is. Ecological diversity was like, well, how do you long term maximize ecological diversity is you exceed new planets was life, right?

Like that would do much more because each new [00:10:00] planet you see was life is an entirely new biome. That's evolving. This is equally rich as Earth's biomes, like almost nothing we do on Earth would be meaningful. In contrast to that, you save one pitiful species, one. Pitiful ecosystem, we've created an entire new biome.

And so we looked at the cost of doing this and because you can get little capsules on satellites, you can pay like 50, 000 to get a capsule on a satellite, which is most of the cost of doing it. Then you can use a serial evolution chamber. This is a chamber where you're. Incrementally changing the conditions within the, the chamber to create, you know, a form of bacteria or a form of fungus.

It's resistant to like the type of radiation you would see on Mars by slowly changing the amount of radiation that it's facing. Slowly changing the heat variation that it's, that it's exposed to. So I'm just quickly breeding organics. And then you put it in one of these, you send it to one of these planets you can seed them.

And then this seeding would eventually lead to, no. What we lead to a whole biome growing there. Now, what would be better? And one of the reasons why I went against doing this is if we had more funding to do this, and the amount that we would [00:11:00] probably be looking at is doing this is we could probably do seeding with gene engineered organisms instead of just serially evolved organisms and through that seed biomes with bacteria, fungus, whatever it is, it turns out to work best that are programmed to create an atmosphere that humans can live within.

And if we do it with something that's not programmed to create that, then you're going to get, like, local optimization beforehand and then if you tried to later seed it with something that was optimized around doing that, it wouldn't be successful and that would Put our species back. The thing that to us matters most.

I mean, our long term goal is an intergalactic human empire. Whatever becomes of humanity. Not like, you know, again, just like the environment. There's no point in freezing humans in a revolution that somewhat defeats the purpose of what makes humanity great. So. That was the one project that didn't, but we had created pronatalist.

org and we were basically like seeding it. We had reached out to a few reporters, but nothing really came of it. And then the piece came of us[00:12:00] because of our embryo selection. And that was actually promoted by one of the companies that we were working with and that got us a platform. And then that platform was picked up by the Insider article.

And then that created the initial virality around this. Now that was very useful to us because After that, we, we sort of became the faces of perinatalism and we're like, okay, like, this actually is an existential issue for our species. Let's move forwards in how we address this. And you guys are getting like a way too honest history of how we got into this, but it is useful in terms of understanding so then we begin to do some experimentation around this and how we engaged with reporters.

Like, do we edge the reporters with controversy or do we actually try to convince the reporters that this isn't a controversial issue? When we did that, we got a piece on us in the third most read newspaper in Canada, the National Post. It was a front page piece on us. It was very popular.

Simone Collins: Demographical apps.

And it was a very balanced, very positive on perinatalism. And our advocacy

Malcolm Collins: [00:13:00] literally got like seven Twitter followers. Like if you're, if you're measuring like how much people liked this from Twitter,

Simone Collins: I don't even know if we got any Twitter followers on that or if anyone really got in. Like the, what, what I'm looking at when I look at, like, is one of our articles here is success.

I'm looking at like, is there, are people talking about this online? Is there engagement with the article? Like are people encountering this and actually learning about the problem and discovering that this is an issue and then maybe changing their behavior about it, or maybe they'll change their voting patterns because of this.

And yeah, that got me no interaction. And, and then in contrast. The first article about us that kind of framed us as pronatalist that, as Malcolm said, framed us in that way because of previous coverage we got because we worked with the company Genomic Prediction on Polygenic Risk or Selection, which we just we did that press for them or like we did an interview for them.

With Bloomberg because we really were excited about their tech. Like that was like, this is [00:14:00] great. We wanted to shout this from the hilltops. No one else is willing to talk about it. So, okay, fine. We will. But yeah, this, so this paywalled insider article. About pronatalism and us that like most people couldn't even access, got tons of engagement and was really like many people's first encounter with the concept of pronatalism, like outside of just religious groups not being

Malcolm Collins: Well it was literally the first public push for pronatalism other than Elon Musk.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. When the thing is like when Elon Musk talks about anything, it could be immigration, it could be prenatalism, it could be cats. Someone is going to cover it because he's like Malcolm said, the most powerful person out there. So like, yeah, again, like what we want to see is can advocates in the space get people talking about it independent of a, a person or independent of what this person has to carry everything.

Malcolm Collins: And so what we realized pretty quickly was that the controversial pieces were actually the pieces that were doing well. [00:15:00] Specifically it, and this is our thesis. When we look at the internet today, I mean, I consider myself a terminally on, I am a child of the internet, you know, the Bain speech,

Oh, you think darkness is your ally. You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it. Molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man. By then it was nothing to me but blight.

The shadows betray you. Because they belong to me.

Malcolm Collins: I was raised. The first generation raised was in these ultra online spaces. I made all of my early friends through the internet. This was in an age where this was considered an insane thing to do, to like, reach out to random people on the internet to make all your friends. [00:16:00] So, I understand this culture, I think much more intuitively and innately than most people was in my generation.

And through that, I am able to engage and, and, and direct the currents where I want them to go much, much more easily than the, the mainstream iterations of, of our group. And what I've realized is that, If you unironically say that I support something was in online spaces these days, like if you're on four chan or something where like actual internet culture happens and you're like, I unironically support this, you are a shill.

You're just seen as a shill like people, it doesn't matter if you really mean to support it or not. You cannot unironically support a thing within online spaces anymore boring. And, and have that thing go viral or have that thing take off. It just hasn't happened. Yeah. When you look at right-leaning influencers that have taken off in the last.

10 years every single conservative or right leaning or even moderate online influencer that has gained prominence in the last half decade to decade has [00:17:00] done so through specifically controversy.

You know, you look at Andrew Tate, you look at Jordan Peterson, all of these individuals, it was their controversy, it was their fight with the media that rose them to prominence. Now, this issue, because it counters the mainstream narratives around what people should care about, is considered a right wing issue.

That's, that's not, I think, necessarily because it's a right wing issue, it's because the left control all centers of power today, so if you are saying anything that challenges the dominant narrative within society, you are considered a far right activist within today's, informational ecosystem. So we're like, okay, we can use this to our advantage.

And we began to push this narrative of us as human clickbait, you know, being as juicy of a story as possible for these individuals who wanted to create these memable, shareable stories. And a lot of people then look at this and they're like, no, That's just people laughing at you, not laughing with you.

That's not you, you [00:18:00] know, the know your meme page about the elite couple breeding to save mankind. And it's like, this is just objectively not true. We see this both from our follower count from the people who positively reach out to us about funding things that we're doing to the people like they almost always hear about us from negative articles.

In fact, negativity, the press shows us in a way that's us with conservative and moderate. Audiences, they see skepticism about reasonable causes as validation of those causes, realism, efficacy, and, and grassroots nature.

Simone Collins: Mean, I will add, I will add just like as a sanity test, if you read something like a clearly negative and against someone article about them, you're probably not going to think that anything positive that you think about them. Was untrue like if there are still some things that you like about them It's not gonna be because someone was writing a puff piece and you fell for it You know, it's because you yourself decided that [00:19:00] despite all these bad things about them There are some things about what they're doing or who they are that you kind of like And that's, that's why, like you, you can't trust anything that's positive because there are so many lies.

There's so much inflation, like no one's face is real online. No one's anything is real online anymore. It seems like everything's fake. And so only unflattering and negative stuff. Like again, like if you see an unflattering photo of someone online. That looks bad. You're more likely to be like, oh yeah, that's, that's really them.

But like they, they actually look pretty good, you know, but it has to be an unflattering.

Malcolm Collins: So for example, so people will think, okay, this works with right wing people, but it doesn't work on converting left leaning people to your ideas. Wrong. So you will get peace. So here's an example of an email we got from someone.

Hello. I first discovered the two of you from your quote, meet the elite couples breeding to save mankind in quote article that went viral. I laughed it off at the time, but soon I started to feel miserable for the nihilism and general depressive [00:20:00] nature of the anti natalist. thinking that seems so pervasive everywhere.

I remembered your article and started digging into your philosophy a bit more. I've listened to most of your podcast episodes and have read the Pragmatist Guide to Life, and I plan to read more of your books. I really like your approach to life and to the future of humanity. I like that you are hopeful and optimistic about building a better world for your children, and I want to be part of that better world also.

And, and this is something that we see all the time, you know, this is not like an isolated type of outreach we get from somebody the idea of genuine, like, just being a genuinely wholesome, positive person, one of the things that I always say that I'm trying to be, that I got from a review of one of our books is that we were like the mirror world, you people know, like the mirror world,

Live long and prosper.[00:21:00]

Ship! Take I mean, there's an entire galaxy out there for us to conquer, and we are here with these petty inter human fights right now over teeny things like nationality and ethnicity when existential threats likely loom in our future that we're going to need to band together to fight. Fight and to fix or at least those of us humans who still have agency and aren't attempting to drag down our species into a silent death or a violent barbarism

 mr. Marsh, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? we have to take matters into our own hands.

We're trying to turn everyone gay so that there are no future humans. Present day America, number one.

Malcolm Collins: From like Star Trek, where like everyone has mustaches and is evil, we try to be like mirror [00:22:00] world, Mr.

Rogers, right, like try to be as and, almost oppressively wholesome as possible in the way we approach things, while still constantly edging on controversy. And through that confirmation confluence, the controversy pushes people in, and then they see who we really are, and they're like, Why is no one else I listen to like an actually healthily, happily married couple?

Why is no one else I'm listening to like actually optimistic about the future of the world and happy and working to try and create the world a better place instead of running around with a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off and yelling and trying to build random followings? It is, you use, you create, you bait the trap.

With the ridiculousness and you reel them in with the wholesomeness. That is the way that we exercise everything. And, and the idea of baiting political [00:23:00] traps was something that I personally really learned from Trump. This wasn't something that I had always seen as a really effective strategy. What he would constantly do is say things that were uniquely controversial.

To the media, like the media would see this and be like, how could anyone ever say that? Because they were so leftist, they were so in a bubble that they were brainwashed that they didn't understand that your average citizen hearing this would be like, Oh, of course. And so they then signal boosts those things and through signal boosting them, but with the negative context attached to them they.

endeared people to him. A great example of this that I always use is when he was like, well, we don't want to be like those shitty countries in Africa. And the media was like, how dare he say, we don't want to be like shitty countries in Africa. And your average person is like, I mean, but I don't want to, would you attack me if I said that?

Does this mean that I'm against you? Does this mean that I'm not part of this cultural group that I thought it was? Does this mean that Trump? Is telling the truth about things, and [00:24:00] this is something that Trump constantly did very effectively in the early days. I I, you know, I'm not like a full Trumpist or anything like that.

I definitely have my consternations with this moral character and some of the directions he takes things. I just think he was a pretty good president.

Simone Collins: But I do, I do want to point something really important out because basically what we're saying here is like, Oh, just like allow yourself to be made fun of, have, have unflattering stuff about yourself float around online.

You know, have, you know, be court controversy, et cetera. And then, and then of course people will just see the truth. And then they'll, they'll disproportionately, you know, come over to your side or like, no, no. So really what this does is. Still tons of people make fun of you. Tons of people still hate you.

Tons of people think you're absolute monsters. And then like the few, well, basically we had this earlier philosophy that I think this came out of, which was it's good to be completely transparent about who you are, because if someone is, is going to [00:25:00] like you, then they're going to like you sooner. And if someone was never going to like you anyway, like why would hiding that thing that you knew they wouldn't like?

Like you're, you're just prolonging the inevitable. They're never going to be on your side. So basically we're, we're, we're definitely never going to be liked by a lot of people. And now a whole lot more people who didn't know we exist now just don't like us because they were never going to like us. And this has had a genuine cost.

There are people who, and I think a lot of people are now, and this is fair because I think a lot of people don't have the same kind of autistic thick skins that we do. Like we just really don't. Care especially about the opinions of people who we think are being completely illogical. So, and that is actually

Malcolm Collins: really rebut them in email today.

She got this really, really bad antinatalist argument and it just angered her so much. Well, it's

Simone Collins: just when, when an argument is that bad, I, I, yeah, I can't help myself, but like, I, I don't care if people are like, Oh, you're evil and, and whatever, and ugly and all the other things people say. I'm like, yeah, sure.

[00:26:00] But. There we have, people are very sensitive about their reputations online. A lot of people won't even act like be online or show their face online or be themselves online, like their real names and their real faces because they're so concerned about their reputations. And that means that we have lost a decent number of friends who just don't want to be associated with us, who literally do not want to be seen with us because we are controversial and because they fear.

That any association with us is going to tarnish their reputations. They're, they're,

Malcolm Collins: they're interested in personal vanity. They're interested in a reputation of as an un a wholesome totally good person who because they see our wholesomeness and they're attracted to us because of that. But when they see that the public, not everyone in the public sees it.

They want to utilize, they're like, Oh, I like that aspect of you. Like, I like who you really are as a person, but I don't like how that Could affect my reputation. And I understand this, you know, a lot of people [00:27:00] live for personal vanity. And so of course, if they are living primarily for personal vanity, rather than the betterment of the human species, rather than to save a species that a perilous point in our history they're not going to understand why we do things that lead to, because there's an instinctual human drive to not have the tribe reject you or anything like that, that this can be utilized to slingshot you.

You know, it's a bit like. In the current context, that famous Apollo mission where they utilize the moon gravity to slingshot them back to earth because they didn't have enough fuel to get back on their own. We're utilizing that to slingshot us is to them an anathema and against the natural order.

And they're like, no, I just care about, you know, and I get it, I get it. And it, and so it has had a cost to us, but I also believe that we are well on track. So this is one thing that's really important. As I pointed out at the start, Elon Musk has been hampering on this issue forever. He has infinitely more power and money than we do, and yet he was unable to pierce the mainstream veil with this.

This year, New York [00:28:00] Times did a front page piece on demographic collapse. This is something that when I talked to your average citizen on the street about, they now have an opinion about. We Pierced the mains. We didn't just pierce it. We popped the bubble. Like it is out now. This is part of Trump's reelection campaign.

It's like one of his core platforms where he's like, Oh, you men, you're going to have so much sex now because of me because he's going to put it in such prenatalist policies. And this was due to us using. Meme ability to pierce that veil, because that, what is meme ability? It's a viral idea. It's an idea that spreads on its own.

When you start spreading this idea, your idiots hear it, they hear the elite couple breeding to save mankind, and they laugh. Ah, ha, ha, ha, let's make memes about this. But then other people are like, wait, What do you mean the elite? That's an absurd thing to say. Who would say that? Why would they say that?

And then they look into this and they're like, Oh, they seem weirdly wholesome or they seem like [00:29:00] demographic collapse. When I look at the numbers, it seems like a real issue. Why have I looked

Simone Collins: into this? The important thing is to like, to properly make fun of us. You kind of also have to understand what.

We're fighting for which means you kind of have to understand demographical apps, which is why now a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, let's have this conversation. Plus, you know, like, so I think the big takeaways we should share is. One courting controversy, definitely, I mean, and this is a known tactic, like, people have written PR books on how, like, hate spreads faster than love, now that, you know, Vice has gone bankrupt, a lot of people who were previously, like, held to all these non disclosure statements have just decided to break them, and they're like, oh, yeah, Vice would tell me to, like, Send my story to someone who is like clearly opposed to it and have them make fun of it because they knew that the hate Shares would be way more effective at driving clicks than hate Mm hmm.

And so so one yes hate is is very effective if you want to raise awareness about something doing so through controversy [00:30:00] through unflattering Angles through all sorts of stuff like that that that is are getting your enemies to cover it You're the enemies of that cause the opposition to cover it is very effective.

However, there is a real cost, especially if you're using yourself as the conduit for that. So just keep that in mind, but that, you know, at least this explains why, like we, we get so many more people. Who would never otherwise engage with this idea to engage with the idea of perinatalism and demographic collapse by, by throwing ourselves under the bus.

So, that's why. We

Malcolm Collins: started this movement like less than a year after we started this movement. front page piece in the New York Times and a conference being held that we didn't put together on the concept of, of pronatalism, like, like our iteration of pronatalism, not like the religious kind that existed before us and stuff like that.

The amount of success I think we've had is undeniable within the public sphere. And it [00:31:00] is, it's, it's working. Like, this could be, if you look at how big a problem demographic collapse is, this could be what saves our frigging species from going extinct. It is worth sacrificing one family on the altar of memeability, especially when that family doesn't mind so much.

Simone Collins: Yeah, there you go. There you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for, you know, walking through hell with me, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: No, I'm the one who pulled you into this. I'm too autistic to care. I mean, it

I am so glad that you have taken the risks you did with me, that you have worked to keep this movement one of positivity, to keep it from going in the ethnocentric direction that we've seen with the European iteration of this movement and I think that we can spread this to something that can really pierce the veil of a lot of people who have had reality and the statistical reality of the world we live in hidden from them by both the academic system It was so funny, we were talking to a reporter [00:32:00] recently.

Sorry, I know I gotta go get the kids. But I gotta relay this anecdote. And she was like, I have talked to a lot of demographers, and all of them say it is impossible to predict demography long term. So there's no reason to prepare for any changes. And I was like, All of the leading indicators suggest decline relates of religiosity.

I can ask a gen alpha. I can ask Gen C. How many kids do you plan on having? I can, do you plan on having kids at all? All of them are worse numbers than before. And she's like, yeah, but it's what the academics say. And it's like, there's this class. It's just diluted, completely diluted into seeing reality.

Anyway, love you to death.

Simone Collins: Love you too, gorgeous.

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