Sandman, a pioneering figure in the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) movement, joins Malcolm and Simone to trace its evolution. They discuss the roots in Men's Rights Activism and pickup artistry. Sandman explains how society tries to reel MGTOW men back in since they refuse to participate in traditional relationships. He predicts virtual girlfriends, declining birth rates, and other tech changing dynamics. While unsure where it's heading, Sandman helped catalyze the withdrawal of men from unfair systems.

Transcript:

Sandman: [00:00:00] I had dolls sent to me for free to review and post on my channel. And for a while I was promoting the technology it weighs 70 like you get a workout before you work, get into bed like you're like ready to fall over before you, you're like, imagine changing positions on this thing three or four times.

Sandman: You're out. You're white. You're like, it's like getting a full workout in the gym. . Yeah,

Malcolm: your doll bod. Yeah, your doll bod. Yes. Yes.

Would you like to know more?

Simone: Hello. We are very excited to be joined today by sandman MGTOW the preeminent MGTOW figure talking head, or I guess I should say faceless talking head.

Simone: You're very mysterious. Representing the movement of men who've chosen to go their own way, which is for those not familiar with it, basically, a lot of men have realized that they're getting a really raw deal in society and they're like, you know what, I'm out, I'm not going to opt into traditional female relationships, a lot of this b******t, and I, for one, am here for it.

Simone: It makes a lot [00:01:00] of sense to me. I think if I were a guy, I'd be a MGTOW guy.

Malcolm: And what I am excited to talk about on this podcast is the anthropology of MGTOW, the anthropological history, and it can start when you started getting involved with it or where you saw who were the figures who were the progenitors of the movement?

Malcolm: How did it first start? What communities did it start in? How did it spread? What have been the major trials of the community? I am just very interested to see it as a cultural movement.

Sandman: Okay, so you had MGTOW 1. 0. And that was around, the early 2000s and the idea was. We were going to take masculinity and instill it in men and we're gonna take femininity instill it in women So it was more like back to tradition, but this is back in 2000 And so that didn't really go anywhere up until about 2008 2009 and then a creator named Barbarossa showed up And he made a video called, I think it was called post feminist man.

Sandman: And he did, [00:02:00] he basically laid the foundations for MGTOW all the way from 12. Then, another creator named Stardusk was around back then. And then when I came in around mid to end of 2013, it was dying down. Nobody was really making content. When I always look at an opportunity in any avenue, like in, in terms of economics or attention or whatever you want to do, I look at something that's something I want a lot of.

Sandman: I want some content. I want something, but there's not enough people supplying that content. So before we go

Malcolm: further on this, because I think you've already passed this in the timeline. How did MGTOW relate to the red pill movement?

Sandman: So you've got, you get the MRAs, which are the men's rights. Activists,

Malcolm: and they're old school. They were back up in like in the

Sandman: nineties, right? But every generation of men has a different movement at the center. So the RAs were, let's say the second half of the boomers and the first half of Gen X, that was the, that's the MRA sweet spot.

Sandman: So if you go to anm a conference, that's your [00:03:00] demographic. Those are men that had relationships that were good. For the most part, and they said, okay, we want these relationships. We want to continue to be married, but we just want to fix things and we want things to go back to the way they were.

Sandman: And so that's the MRAs. So the MGTOWs came in and that was the second half of Gen X and the first half of the millennials. And that's like your MGTOW sweet spot. And so I'm You know, in the middle of that. So I could see the, I could understand the younger guys and understand the point of view of the older guys.

Sandman: And MGTOW was saying, look, we can't fix these problems. You've tried to fix them for the last 10, 15 years. It's not working. What we have to do is fix these problems for the individual male. We have to make sure that the individual man has a solution for his own life. We can't change society, but you can change your own life.

Sandman: And that's why MGTOW was so powerful. And, but also we have to understand MGTOW men had relationships. They just weren't very high quality [00:04:00] relationships and so and then okay, so then after that once that kind of passes now You're in the age of the incel So you're now talking about guys who haven't had any formative relationships with women They haven't had those sexual experiences And so they're just that's why kind of incel has moved forward and taken over and it was originally that was called true force loneliness So if you watch the original true force loneliness guys back in 2014, 15, they were angry and they were more masculine.

Sandman: So when people say the incels are violent, yes the older incels, they were sex deprived and they, for the most part, they were a lot more aggressive than the, you the younger incels who are a lot more passive. And I think a lot of that also has to do with the with the testosterone levels.

Sandman: I think the testosterone levels are dropping. So because of that, you're starting to see men, that are 18, 19 that are saying, I don't want sex. And I'm, the fact that you have young males in their prime that are, have no sex drive. Should be worrying to all of us. [00:05:00]

Malcolm: So this is analogous to like the herbivore male movement in Japan.

Sandman: Yeah. Herbivore men, like a lot of people said they're MGTOWs. A lot of people said they're incels, but they're more MGTOWs because they're choosing to walk away. So there's a choice there,

Sandman: okay. So then in the midst of all of this, you had the P ways, the pickup artist community, and the pickup artist community is now what is referred to as the red pill movement, because they I guess they just take the label for themselves.

Sandman: Now, the problem with the, with MGTOW was on in November of 2018, the entire MGTOW community on YouTube was demonetized every single channel on one day. Was hit. So what happened was once that happened, you can see the peak on YouTube search results and then you see a decline from that point on.

Sandman: But all of the other communities were still allowed to continue to be monetized. So all of the other. So people started shifting. They said I can't make money making micktau content. I'm going to make [00:06:00] red pill pickup artist content. So they took all of the knowledge that they had And they started like shifting their, target audience a little bit.

Sandman: Like I'm still one of the few hardcore content creators that managed to survive after all of that. But the majority of content creators, they were either like thrown off the platforms and now they exist in, like all tech platforms or they just gave up. So you saw within six months, like 90% of the MGTOW content producers just disappeared.

Sandman: And when I came in, I realized, okay, how do you create a movement? What you do is you make something that works, an idea and you pass it out and you make money doing it. And then when other people see you doing this they'll adopt the same idea and start promoting the idea and making money off of it.

Sandman: And so that and why was MGTOW so threatening compared to everything else? It's because it's, it was effective because it was literally empowering individual males to build up their financial assets. To, not give women attention to, to basically live life for themselves. And so a [00:07:00] lot of that is also been replaced by the Sigma like movement.

Sandman: So you're seeing that group too. Tell

Malcolm: me about that group. Yeah. The Sigma group I find really interesting, but before you go further, one thing I want to clarify for our audience, how insane it is that the make time movement was demonetized is imagine if you had a female, an equivalent female movement that was like, guys are horrible.

Malcolm: Let's just not date. Let's try to figure out how to live without men and yeah, they had, they might have some misandrist undertones to them. Imagine if they had all been demonetized. People would have thrown, they'd be like, why can't women just not date? But no, guys doing that? That's not allowed.

Malcolm: But all right, let's continue with the Sigma movement because I find them really interesting

Sandman: too. The Sigma grind set, like I would identify a Sigma as a Sigma male because I'm constantly working, constantly producing, making money, blah, blah, blah. So there's this gap that happened in society when, you get this existential crisis where a lot of guys are like saying I'm not going to have a relationship.

Sandman: What should I do with my free time? And then they just, I'm just going to [00:08:00] work and work and work. And so that's allowed because that means. The mail is productive. He's paying his tax, so he's enriching the state. Make town. On the other hand, it deprives women of attention. It deprives the state of you.

Sandman: A lot of men are not over there going there. We're not gonna have Children. So it deprives the state of Children. It deprives the lawyers of divorces. There's all this knock on effect that's affecting society. So that's why it's the most threatening one from an economic standpoint. Because, if you're the elites and all of a sudden there's a group of men that are just hoarding their money.

Sandman: And making a ton of money and not like paying it out, then you have competition. Those men can create new technologies and things. Anyway, go ahead. Would you define

Simone: Sigma? Cause I'm actually not familiar with this distinction.

Malcolm: Defined in contrast to Alpha, so I think that's probably a good way to do it.

Malcolm: Oh, like Alpha. So you

Sandman: got like Alpha, oh, you've got Alpha Delta, you got like the four different types of males and define. So they're all part of a hierarchy. They're all part of a hierarchy. Okay. [00:09:00] Walk me through Sigma. Male. Okay. So the, to be a Sigma male, you have to be outside of the hierarchy and you can't just be outside the hierarchy.

Sandman: You can't, you have to be of the mindset. You just don't give a s**t. So I'll give you an example. When I was growing up when I was in the ninth grade, I was being bullied, so I decided, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to work out. And I spent literally two hours a day working out for a couple of years.

Sandman: And after that, nobody picked on me. But then what I noticed was I could express myself in any which way that I wanted, I could beat, go involved, get involved with music or poetry and people couldn't say, oh, you're gay or whatever. It's because I could get violent back at them. So there was this kind of.

Sandman: The Sigma male doesn't care, it's you've seen the the, that what's the archetype of the Sigma, the, the giga chat, like he just doesn't care. He's got that smirk look on his face where he's just I don't care. So that's the thing you got to the person who defined the Sigma male can remember his name.

Sandman: But he goes through it and he breaks it down. Another aspect of Sigma males is that nobody likes them because they don't know. What to do with them. [00:10:00] They just they like, you're not trying to like they have nothing

Simone: on them. There's nothing that they can hold hostage. That gives them control.

Simone: Yeah,

Sandman: exactly. Because it's if you're not part of the hierarchy, if you're not part of the hierarchy, which is pretty much my experience growing up, the hierarchy will try to drag you back in. It'll try to suck you back in. Yeah. And the more you fight it, the more it wants to drag you in even more.

Sandman: So that's the thing about Sigma males, it's like they'll fight to remain outside the hierarchy.

Simone: Now how is that different from just m Midtown in general? Because you were alluding to like Sigma males still like being, I think, more economically involved. I

Malcolm: can give you my answer and he can tell me if it's wrong, is I actually think that you're looking at the question from two different angles.

Malcolm: Okay. MGTOW was men going their own way. It was a life strategy. There was a period where there was like this fad within the manosphere online to talk about being alpha and what you need to be alpha and this is how you alpha and like the red pill was really obsessed with alpha. And it makes sense that in reaction [00:11:00] to that. Men who were of this more stigma mindset, which, historically and anthropologically likely existed would say that doesn't describe my desires at all or what's motivating me at all.

Malcolm: So I will define myself in opposition to this. So I think what you're missing is that the 2 communities might have a lot of overlaps. But they're not in competition with each other in the same way that like MGTOW and Red Pill may have been more of a, not opposing movements, but like definitely ideologically, you have to

Sandman: say the pickup artists and the MGTOWs.

Sandman: I see, though, like the Red Pill pickup. You'd have to define it because they're a Red Pill pickup. Yeah,

Malcolm: yeah. And I could define Red Pill if people are wondering, and you can tell me if this is wrong. I view the key distinction between them and the MGTOWs is. Men and women are different.

Malcolm: Society is unfair for men. Makes us said, and for that reason, we just shouldn't engage with the system. And red pill said, and for that reason, we should attempt to manipulate women to our advantage. And

Sandman: Men saying we're taking our ball, we're ending this game and we're going home. Yeah. And all, but all of the other groups, the MRAs, The [00:12:00] pickup artists, the incels, they all want to play the game.

Sandman: Yeah. And that's why they're allowed and that's why they're monetized, because they're still willing to cater to women's desires and give women attention. Okay. Oh,

Malcolm: here's a really interesting thing. The MGTOW movement is actually ideologically very similar to the 4NOS movement in Korea, but that is a feminist movement.

Malcolm: Yeah. Yes.

Sandman: Hold on, what are the four no's? I'm just going to look these up really quick. No sex, no marriage, no children. Yeah,

Malcolm: something like that. Yeah. Yeah, that's the gist of it. But it is very interesting as society begins to become systemically unfair. It only makes sense for one group to just walk away with the ball.

Sandman: Yeah, but then the system has to try to do whatever it can. To make, you make the people who walk away, come back or make them make men think that there's no, there is no option to walk away. So if you try to erase MGTOW from the conversation then people aren't going to get involved there.

Sandman: So they're not going to think that's an option. Are

Malcolm: you seeing [00:13:00] bubblings of any new groups? Like we've talked about how things have evolved under over time. Do you know what the next iteration is going to be called?

Sandman: We spoke about this before, like the. The trans maxing groups, right? And that's in. So that's the next offshoot of the incels and that's because that's becoming effective.

Sandman: And it's pissing off a lot of women as well, because a lot of guys like I was predicting this 456 years ago, I said that guys would transition so that they could get sex because they could pressure. Lesbian women to get sex. And all of a sudden, lo and behold, like a year ago the trans maxing movement shows up and everyone's like, how did you predict that?

Sandman: It's isn't it obvious? These guys want sex. They're going to do whatever it takes. So they're literally doing whatever it takes.

Malcolm: That is fascinating. And yeah, for people who aren't aware of the trans maxing movement is basically. group of incels that said if men are treated so unfairly in society, then let's just become women.

Malcolm: And then we'll be treated fairly. And reportedly most of the, it's going pretty

Sandman: well for most of the people in the movement. It seems to have a high success rate, I'm finding that there's [00:14:00] there are a lot of issues with mental illness in the movement that I've run into, but there are also a lot of people who are looking at it from like a scientific point of view, like if you look at if the person I would point everybody to is Tina a German trans maxster that literally. Experimented with this and said I want to use female hormones, not for sex, but so that I can reduce my sex drive as a male.

Sandman: Oh, wow. Because the idea was like sex was so like, if your sex drive is high, but you can't express it. Yes, exactly. And it's causing your suffering. So if you reduce your sex drive or eliminate it completely, Then, then you won't suffer anymore.

Simone: And that's so that's, and I think this is really helping me understand where I got the MGTOW movement wrong, because I had initially seen the MGTOW movement as like the Buddhism to.

Simone: Like a messed up sexual strategy world. So whereas pickup artists were like, Oh, life is suffering. I'm going to figure out how [00:15:00] to just do it really well. And accumulate as much wealth or whatever, like points as I can, whereas migtau was, Oh, life is suffering and the cycle.

Simone: And it was like this Buddhist approach of if the desire is what causes pain, then I will stop desiring, but I'm getting that I'm wrong there. I, that was a total misconception.

Malcolm: Migtau boards. The most common type of posts that I remember, and you can correct me of this, was showing off all the things they could afford because they didn't spend money on women.

Simone: Yeah. My if I have to like. It might not like, I'm doing a mid journey like picture of a MGTOW post. It's like a beautiful view from a hiking trail with a dog of or a nice car in the background, too. Or

Malcolm: a nice car in the background, yeah. But I'm wondering, has that type of posting died down?

Malcolm: What types of posts have been common in the community over

Sandman: time? You're right there was a guy called Mayor of Migtown, and he posted the expensive cars, and what this did was, the conservative movement, the conservatives, the conservative women especially, were really angry, because they realized, this is a man that's spending his money on this car instead of spending it on a woman.

Sandman: And [00:16:00] all of a sudden they thought, the female, I call it the female collective got angry because that was money that, they saw as possibly belonging to a woman. So how dare he use that money for himself? And I think there's a lot of that too.

Malcolm: That's a really interesting phenomenon that I want to touch on.

Malcolm: And we touched on it the last time we were talking. This concept of the female collective. Because I have noticed this as a phenomenon, like we talked about it in the case of like sex dolls and like weirdly feminist groups getting angry about that or the MGTOW and women getting more angry about that than they did about the red pill community.

Malcolm: There is some sort of reaction. Of money that isn't going to the female collective. And I don't think there's an equivalent male reaction.

Sandman: The thing is you talk about sex dolls and sex robots, the, the community always says, women will never use that technology as much as men because it doesn't come with a wallet.

Sandman: Because the man they get involved with will also provide all these other benefits, but if they're just with the, a hot, attractive Android, that Android is not going to give them all [00:17:00] the other things they want. My favorite

Malcolm: recent example of this was when the completely AI generated girls began to get to the top of the pay per girl websites.

Malcolm: Um And there was like a revolt. Like I can't remember, there was like a strike and people were calling for them to be banned

Sandman: Have you guys heard of code Miko?

Malcolm: No, I think that's, yeah.

Sandman: Continue. So Code Miko is an Asian girl and she basically puts on a full immersion suit that like generates the character and she interacts with people.

Sandman: She's got like a podcast. It's actually really good. Like it's really awesome. And she does all these exaggerated facial expressions and things and people were angry. So it's she can change her skin and she can basically, she's, so she looks like a 3d generated character.

Sandman: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Sandman: But the motion captures technology is like what you would see in a film, right? Just, she's got this technology to capture her facial expressions, capture her body language, everything.

Malcolm: Another interesting case of this that happened recently that I remember was that a Instagram celebrity was found to be completely [00:18:00] AI generated. And like after the big release, like she didn't lose that many followers. Turned out people don't really care if what they're seeing is AI generated. And there might even eventually be a premium on that content, given the politics involved, which is just

Simone: fascinating to me.

Simone: I want to ask a question. I want to get your conjecture, Sandman, on whether there might even be in the midst of this AI being completely. Supplanting women in terms of romantic friendships and relationships and everything. But then also, do you think that there's a world in which there's some kind of weird detente between...

Simone: MGTOW men and the equivalent MGTOW women, where they just agree we will co parent and share a child because it makes sense.

Simone: So women can gestate, and for free, a woman a man wouldn't have to pay a surrogate.

Simone: They could share the child every other week.

Sandman: . Okay, back in 2015, I that was this is something I tried. I tried I got involved in a few relationships, and I said This is what I would want, which would be like, let's [00:19:00] own two different apartments that are apart and have co parent and do all of this stuff.

Sandman: It scared the women away. Like it totally scared them away. But I feel like I've met women

Simone: who are like, I don't need a husband. I just really would like to have a kid, but I would like to know that there's like another person

Malcolm: that would I know a lot of women who have said this too. I've known none of them that have acted

Sandman: on it.

Sandman: I don't know any couples that have done it. No.

Malcolm: It's a very common thing. sentiment. It seems like it would

Simone: work so well.

Malcolm: It does seem like it would work well, but I the aspect of it that I hear where I think it breaks down is they say, I will, I want to be, I want to do this on my own and I'll do it with a collection of other women.

Malcolm: And then that doesn't end up working. They try living in the group and it doesn't end up working. That's

Sandman: what I often see. You've heard the mom Yun's movement, right? No, so there's articles. You should look up like commune, but mom, you and so they're like mothers that get together and live with their Children.

Sandman: And, I feel sorry for the oldest male Children because they're going to be used as the [00:20:00] emotional tampon to soak up all that negative energy of all the moms that are like, Oh, Billy, come over here. It's like Billy has to take all the let me talk your ear off for an hour. And then the next mother comes in and talks his ear off for an hour.

Sandman: The poor child is like he's talking to his like For mothers for four hours or five hours,

Simone: actually, we met someone who a guy who had come out of a cult in South America where there was just one dude with a ton of wives and basically as soon as the male youths got. Of age, came of age, basically turned 16, they were kicked outta the commune.

Simone: So essentially it was just tons of women and one adult man. But he came out like really well adjusted and had this like network of male brothers around like the United States that oh, I just

Malcolm: saw how the mom, you movement works. By the way. I was looking at how does it work? It's weird. I haven't seen this happen.

Malcolm: they often seem to be related. It's sisters, a daughter and

Simone: mother. Oh, okay.

Malcolm: So [00:21:00] it's that makes perfect sense. And in that case, it would make sense because there's like genetic alignment, right? That's

Simone: family alignment. Yeah. But yeah, I actually feel like the guys in that came out pretty from that cult came out pretty well adjusted.

Simone: So I don't know if maybe it could work.

Malcolm: Yeah, no, you're right. I know the guy she's talking about and he was incredibly well adjusted. He was a really cool guy. Yeah, we're like, oh

Simone: crap. Should we be raising our kids in a cult or something?

Sandman: He's probably looking up to his father and picking up a lot of the characteristics that the father had around the mother's dynamic.

Sandman: So that, like he, obviously it's rubbing off the behavior.

Simone: Yeah. And he clearly knew how to manage. So I don't know if

Malcolm: you explain this. It was a sex cult.

Simone: It was a sex cult. It was one man, many,

Malcolm: many women. And all of the brothers were kicked out of the cult. All of the women stayed in the cult.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Simone: Cause the brothers became sexual threats. That's why he had a network

Malcolm: of only brothers. Yeah.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah. The women

Malcolm: stayed. But I've actually noticed something broadly is that people who grew up in cults seem to be more better mentally adjusted than people who don't. In my broad experience, [00:22:00] which is a really weird thing I've noticed, I think it might just be that our society today is so toxic.

Malcolm: That anything that insulates people from it or leads to better mental health, or you're meeting the ones

Simone: who were smart enough to leave the cults, right? So they not only survived the cults, left them and then made it work in the real world, right? So you're seeing the best of the best, there, there is that factor. So this is a really interesting evolution of Megt that you've given to us. Where do you think the movement is going and where do you wanna see the movement?

Malcolm: Okay, so I,

Sandman: I'm talking to I've talked to younger guys in their teens, number one they're more likely to pick up on the whole AI girlfriend thing.

Sandman: Nice. This is one of the things that's it's made me feel like my tech, the technology, the virtual sex system I told you about earlier. I feel young guys wouldn't even want intimacy with a real woman anymore, even if it was like mediated through technology, they're more interested in like their phone and the female voice on the phone.

Sandman: They're turned on by that and they want a relationship with their phone. And so we're entering this weird[00:23:00] place in human history where, you guys, you're talking about trying to keep the fertility rates from keep them stable or at least go back up. We're going below 1. Oh, I

Malcolm: agree.

Malcolm: I think we're going below 0. 5 everywhere, but I think that you're right in what you're saying. And I do think that this will be the next big movement. It's really interesting that you mentioned it because what it will allow for is cultural groups to form where these guys are married to the AI. where they're like, don't devalue my relationship, this is exactly the same as being married to a woman.

Malcolm: What I'm wondering is if this time around, there would be an alliance between the guys who marry the AIs and the girls who marry the AIs, because they'd have a lot of the time, maybe more interested. Or will it become like marrying an AI as a guy is evil, but marrying an AI as a girl is a totally normal thing to

Sandman: do?

Sandman: I don't know what's, okay. So right now you're seeing women having coping strategies with regards to [00:24:00] loneliness and not getting male attention. You're seeing, like the social media is filling in the gap. I'm seeing women all kind of liking each other's posts to give each other esteem.

Malcolm: I know it's an interesting phenomenon. I hadn't, you mentioned it and I was like, I've seen that. I

Sandman: didn't. So like a woman will post something and then 20 of her female friends will post something. Then you go to the other woman's posts and then you'll see those same 20 women posts or overlap a large overlap.

Sandman: And so they're giving each other. Like that attention that men would have typically given them attention. And he obviously we're in an attention based economy. So the more attention you get, the more currency you get, the more people. Want to get a piece of your attention. It's just it's ridiculous.

Sandman: It's just insane, right?

Malcolm: I think that it's interesting to contrast. This is what we see happening in male spheres, which is more consolidation of attention among fewer individuals, where it's less of attention sharing groups and more of hero worship cults.

Sandman: Yeah, it's ridiculous how yeah, like it's ridiculous.

Sandman: You're seeing, [00:25:00] I've spoken to the same young guys and they're obsessed with Andrew Tate, but they're all, they talk about, they talk like him. They're emulating him. So the wonder all of the teachers in the schools are freaking out because they don't understand that these kids are just emulating the more like crass and crude parts of him.

Sandman: They're not like imitating the more complex thought. So it's that's anyway, that's what I'm saying. This

Malcolm: is something you had talked about, which I think, we're going to say this is, you were putting out that you respected his deeper philosophy. And you think he just uses the crass thing to get public attention.

Sandman: Yeah. That there's a dual strategy there, right? Like it's to use, the soundbites to get some people's attention and then try to drag other, drag the more intellectual people into the more complex stuff down the road if they're up for it.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah, although I, yeah, it's interesting what you say.

Simone: That there's a generation and I think you're on this. It's totally right that you can follow the Andrew Tate school of thought, but not want to do with women what Andrew Tate has done. Because [00:26:00] frankly, what Andrew Tate has done with women, at least historically, I don't know what he's up to now is way too high effort.

Simone: I do not want to like, can you imagine like dealing with all of these women, like managing them professionally, maintaining all these relations? It sounds like a nightmare.

Sandman: But the thing is, it's you can definitely see that he's an incredibly a high IQ male, right? So he's able to like,

Simone: he has tons

Malcolm: of energy.

Malcolm: Yeah. He's got a, he's got a big work ethic and he's made a few really big risky moves in his career, which paid off.

Sandman: Yeah, but we'll see how that paid off if he ends up in jail. So it's going to be, it's going to be interesting to see. But yeah, like in terms of where, in terms of where MGTOW is going, like I, that's the thing that scares me the most is just the complete lack of human interaction.

Sandman: Because I'm like what does that represent for the human race? And then, if we're, if we want to talk about collapsing populations, the thing that the thing I love about Malcolm saying 96% of the South Koreans [00:27:00] will be gone in a hundred years. That is like the wake up call that people need to hear.

Sandman: But the problem is humans do not think in exponentials, right? We don't think about exponential population growth or exponential population decline. And it won't be until we're like, well down, half, halfway down that curve where people say, Oh, I think there's a problem. It's you think, right?

Sandman: So I don't know If we're going to find solutions, like obviously we were using too many resources, like people, some people will say, Oh, we know the planet is underpopulated. We can have another 10 billion people on it. Yes, but we're going to run out of fish. We're going to run out of topsoil, we're going to run out of these things and we need to allow the earth to renew these things.

Sandman: So AI will provide us virtual workers that'll replace a huge chunk of the population. So I think a lot of these problems will solve themselves. But my biggest worry is that there's gonna be a, like a just how there's like a overshoot with population growth.

Sandman: There's gonna be an undershoot with population decline. [00:28:00] And my thing is like, how do we stop that undershoot? Again, we're not gonna be around to see that, but yeah. But I also think that the person who kind of figures this out will probably be one of the most important people in the next a hundred to 200 years.

Malcolm: Yeah, I think, I hope it's me then. I want to get that in the history book. No, but I don't know. I do agree that whoever figures this out. I actually think it's more than that. I think multiple people will figure this out for different cultural groups, because I think there's going to be more than one answer.

Malcolm: And I think every one of those people who figures this out is going to be one of the most represented. Thought patterns or cultural groups 100 years from now, they will define what the future of our species looks like. And I'd also remind people that we're still a species on one planet, all of the cultural changes that happen now for our species will be represented Multitudinally across the thousands of planets.

Malcolm: We hopefully one day colonize in a way that like if one person a thousand times smarter than me came up with some great idea, when we're on a thousand planets, it's never [00:29:00] going to spread to all of humanity. So the impact you can have by working on this problem is bigger than any impact our descendants are going to be able to have.

Sandman: Yeah, and I don't think you see the problem with a lot of these communities is they don't necessarily overlap. And this is another thing that this is one of the reasons that probably the main reason I reached out to Malcolm was because Malcolm understands that you can talk about, you can talk to all these groups.

Sandman: And the problem, I always find that everyone is just stuck in their silo and they won't talk to anyone else and they won't acknowledge the knowledge of other groups simply because they're so like cliquey. And this is, again, part of that whole Sigma male thing where you don't care. Like who's out, which group is the biggest and blah, blah, blah, right?

Sandman: You're just pushing your own you're pushing your own knowledge base forward.

Simone: I think that's one of the reasons that gives me a lot of hope for the movement in the future, because in the future, I think doing what's conformist and what like is conventionally wise is. Maybe just not going to work like in the face of technology and [00:30:00] modernity and groups like Sigma males are more likely to develop cultural and technological innovations that could make it one of the most generative and influential groups.

Simone: If it doesn't get caught in some kind of masturbatory AI girlfriend, do nothing loop. And I don't,

Sandman: I don't think Sigma is so much about like sex and reproduction. It's more about just like. Working producing getting ahead financially. So there's not much. So it is

Simone: focused on like output in the world, which is, yeah.

Simone: Yeah. It's not so much about just like retreating into, there's going to, there are

Malcolm: going to be

Sandman: technologies that make each of these subgroups like irrelevant. So for example, when I look at when I look at the P ways, so right, if you've ever listened or read the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, there's the babble fish, right?

Sandman: You put the babble fish. So right now, yeah. Yeah, I've spoken to guys and they're like, they go on dating sites and what they do is they take, they copy paste the response the woman gives them and they put it in AI [00:31:00] and then AI comes up with what to say to the woman. So they're like literally. Like becoming, I would call it like what's his name?

Sandman: Bergerac. What's his name? I don't know. I know. No Cyrano de Bergerac, right? Cyrano de Bergerac. So you create a technology that's like that, that literally translates what a woman says and you, and now you have something to say back to her and you could call it the Cyrano because it's like Cyrano de Bergerac.

Sandman: And so imagine every guy walking around on dates with this earpiece. That's like literally feeding them lines to tell the woman back. So the woman doesn't even know who she's dating anymore. Is it, is she dating the AI? Is she dating the guy? I don't think that even dating will exist. It's just, we're getting into these really weird places where, you know, like right now you saw Tinder destroy everything in 2013, 14, it destroyed the sexual marketplace, and now you're going to see these other technologies.

Sandman: Completely destroy that again. So

Malcolm: Just for viewers, what he's saying isn't subjective. Statistically, Tinder destroyed the sexual marketplace and the other, you can see this in the data, like sexless rates, relationshipless rates shoot up [00:32:00] after Tinder was invented and correlate with its spread and the spread of that model, but the other thing that he mentioned there that I think is really.

Malcolm: Interesting is when we talk about people using the eyes for how they communicate with their partner, especially as we get more and more hooked to a eyes, I imagine that's going to be a big part of the argument that the people who are just dating a eyes directly use. It's you're just using somebody as a meat puppet.

Malcolm: You're basically dating their AI assistant anyway. Like we just cut out the middleman. We, they may even develop a movement where you are exploiting women or men by dating a real woman or man. That any sort of sexual relationship, cause I've already seen sub currents of this is intrinsically exploitative and the only healthy sexual relationship is when solely was in

Sandman: ai.

Sandman: And then the AI will collect your data and then it'll sell it to whatever it's gonna get in the AI will generate the perfect image based on, what you've looked at in terms of pornography, in terms of who you've made eye contact with. Another thing that no one's really talking about is how A.

Sandman: [00:33:00] R. Is gonna change things. So imagine now in the sexual marketplace. So you put on your apple vision pro, right? And now you can, you could be a 25 year old guy and you could find a 55 or 60 year old woman. You could put on the A. R. Glasses and now she looks like a 25 year old woman because the technology will now.

Sandman: digitally de age her in bed. You just hope the battery doesn't run out while you're having your orgasm. We're

Malcolm: already seeing that with the auto filters on a lot of these things, like TikToks and stuff like that. To the extent where when I, when we talk with our younger viewers. Body dysmorphia is a major problem in these communities, I think because they have such a misunderstanding of what the average person actually looks like.

Malcolm: And this came up in an episode where I said, You want to get rid of your body dysmorphia, go to a mall. If you're in the top 20%, you probably don't have a problem. And Simone said, and the listeners, the viewers in the comments agreed with her, Oh, [00:34:00] that doesn't count. That's just comparing yourself to the population.

Malcolm: What are you comparing yourself to? If not the population, some made up ideal. Yeah,

Sandman: you're making yourself feel good by looking at all the land whales, right? Like it's just, yeah, they

Simone: don't count. Everyone

Malcolm: is a sea

Simone: of land whales. No. We ha we, we are now comparing ourselves to like the filtered, perfect angle, non humans that we see online.

Simone: But I think that bodes even better. I think, I'm really starting to see a future in which like these sex dolls that you're designing actually have a world like it could be that like I as a female of the future would never even like I may develop a big attachment to a guy, but I would never want him to actually see me.

Simone: Because then he would see physically what I look like. And instead I can have like my filter and we can mix and we can feel all the good stuff. But But here's

Malcolm: There's,

Sandman: There's certain there's influencers, like they're, some of them are older. And I'm like, wow, she was really hot when she was like 25, 30.

Sandman: And I'm like[00:35:00] would I get together with her today? No. But if I had AR and I put that on, would I get together with her? Yes. So that would change, and then would she feel okay by doing that? Like how, like maybe she'd be like I liked you at this age, so I can just put this filter on.

Sandman: Or,

Simone: I like how this fictional character looks. I'll just put that on

Malcolm: you. Exactly, right? That would be a great form of cheating that happens in the future, where you tell your spouse you're only de aging them, but you're actually replacing them with another person. Yes! And they're like, your setting was on X the entire time!

Malcolm: You told me this with younger me!

Sandman: How dare you cheat on me with the neighbor while you're with me! It's I'm not Yeah!

Simone: We are going to have this. This is a guaranteed problem of the

Malcolm: future. These are real problems. Like we're saying this and people are like, that's a wacky thing. Guaranteed problem of the future.

Sandman: I had dolls sent to me for free kind of to review and post on my channel. And for a while I was promoting the technology. That the problem there's [00:36:00] amazing things with the technology, which I could probably count on one or two fingers, and there's all these bad things with the technology, which include things like it weighs 70 like you get a workout before you work, get into bed like you're like ready to fall over before you, you're like, imagine changing positions on this thing three or four times.

Sandman: You're out. You're white. You're like, it's like getting a full workout in the gym. And this is something nobody thinks about. They're like, Oh, I want a doll. It's and then everyone's how big is the doll? It's it's five feet tall and it's it weighs 70 pounds. So get a full sized one.

Sandman: How much is that going to weigh? 80, 90 pounds. Now you're moving an 80, 90 pound doll around. Yeah,

Malcolm: your doll bod. Yeah, your doll bod. Yes. Yes.

Simone: All right. I think when I think about this, though, I think about the I think it was with gorillas where like they, they took infant gorillas, just some kind of ape and they tried to see what kind of mother surrogate it would connect to.

Simone: And they had yeah, like a wire thing with like milk, I think. Yeah. And they had a warm, fuzzy stuffed animal. And that even though it didn't [00:37:00] have milk, the, the babies would go to the warm, fuzzy stuffed animal not the wireframe with the milk. And I think what we have to do with the future of sex is figure out what for us is the warm, fuzzy, like people are thinking, Oh, we need this like physical giant doll with all the stuff.

Simone: Maybe what we really need is a haptic suit with all the right inserts, like with a flashlight or with

Sandman: a vibrator. Oh that's exactly what I was. Talking about earlier with the, so the doll, like the woman you pay for the service, you would have the suit and it would have all of the different things stimulating her.

Sandman: Yeah. My biggest thing was like, for me, I don't get necessarily more pleasure from getting pleasure. I get more pleasure from giving pleasure. It's more fulfilling for me. So for me, when I, people are like, Oh, I'm going to have sex with the robot. I'm like, but the robot is not alive there. I'm not getting anything by giving something to it.

Sandman: But then you talk to younger people like We're already obsolete. Like I'm in my mid forties, you guys, there's probably somewhere in your thirties and you got to look at the 18 to 30 year olds [00:38:00] and that's where things are happening. And if 50% of 18 to 30 year old males. Are either in not in relationships or don't want relationships.

Sandman: That means that 25 25 is in cell and in MGTOW. Yeah, so that's like the majority of the population is there and I'm predicting that you're gonna get 70 to 80% MGTOWs slash in cells and you're gonna get maybe 20% at the top that are gonna still have sex. But at some point, even that those that group, if the technology gets good enough, is gonna start walking away.

Sandman: No, what I

Malcolm: love about this is you're one of the guys who, originally was promoting this movement, growing this movement, you're still a leader in the movement, but you're here being like, Oh s**t. What happens when 75% of guys are in this movement? This is,

Sandman: okay. This is another thing.

Sandman: Like I was told back in the day, a lot of guys who were promoting this, they said, my whole thing was like, I want to make MGTOW mainstream. And. I did that. I accomplished making it mainstream and I'm like maybe that wasn't such a good idea, right? It's oops,

Malcolm: right?

Malcolm: The solution was keeping this rickety [00:39:00] system. No, but I don't think, I do think the system was intrinsically unsafe before and I think it was exploitative. And I think calling out an exploitative system is, never an immoral action.

Sandman: I think the only way to really see the problem is to see it from outside the system.

Sandman: So you have to go your own way and then look at the sexual marketplace from the outside and then figure out like, Oh, because that was why I even got involved in the first place. I was involved in a five year relationship, then a ten year relationship. And I was like, okay, before I go back into relationships, I need to figure out what's going on.

Sandman: And I started looking for dating advice. And then that's why I found MGTOW and it was like, Oh, this isn't dating advice. This is advice on not to date. Wait, and this makes more sense than dating advice. Like how is, and that's the place I came from anyway.

Malcolm: Okay. Simone, I have to go pick up the kids

Simone: now.

Simone: It was a really big pleasure speaking with you. I would love to do this again at some point. So hoping you might be up for more conversations. Yeah. Like just

Sandman: pick a topic and we can go

Simone: sweet. Cool. Yes. All right. Then more [00:40:00] soon. And thank you so much. It was great.

Sandman: Awesome. Thank you.

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