A conversation with Jerome Ternynck, the CEO of applicant tracking tool SmartRecruiters. Sponsored by Emissary.ai and Workhere.com

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Chris Russell: The RecTech Podcast is sponsored in part by our friends at Emissary.ai, the text recruiting platform. Your next superstar is in demand and on the move. Emissary is the easiest way to connect with them faster and more effectively wherever they are. So if you haven't embedded texting into your recruiting process yet, what are you waiting for? It's definitely something that's as a channel, today's employers need to communicate more effectively with there candidates and prospects. Go to emissary.ai and schedule a demo today. Chris Russell: We're also sponsored by our friends at WorkHere.com, the hyper-local candidate delivery tool through geo-fencing app platform. You can reach more people through their online ads with pinpoint precision where they live, work and shop. WorkHere will advertise your jobs on the screens candidates use the most, their mobile phone. And messaging is then delivered into the social mobile apps they use most often. Head over to WorkHere.com and be sure to tell them heard it the RecTech podcast. Chris Russell: All right, so today's audio is an interview with Jerome Ternyck, CEO of SmartRecruiters, one of my favorite ATS's out there. The first one I ever used actually as a recruiter. I sat down for him at their San Francisco offices for a 30 minute conversation, and I think you're really going to enjoy this one. He was very open and honest and authentic as he always is and enjoy the audio. Chris Russell: Okay. I'm here with Jerome Ternyck, CEO of SmartRecruiters in their San Francisco offices on Bush Street and had a chance to come down here after the TA week events and come see Jerome. He's always been inviting me out here and finally got a chance to make it to San Fran and SmartRecruiter. So Jerome, first of all, it's great to see you again and how's life today? Jerome Ternyck: Likewise. Thanks for having me on the show. And yeah, life is good. Life is good. You're actually catching me today on January the 30th which is exactly 24 hours before the end of our fiscal year so we're busy signing deals left and right, rushing into the end of the year preparing budgets. And I think on Friday evening everybody will be resting for weekend. But just for the weekend, because we have our Hiring Success conference coming up in two weeks on Feb 11 and 12. When we'll have a thousand people coming here and so we're excited. It's busy time here. Chris Russell: Yeah, definitely. Quick history lesson for people who know me. SmartRecruiters was the very first ATS I ever used as it recruited back in 2014-ish around there. I picked them because they seemed to be a modern platform back then, and they still are. They had an app and things like that at the time, which were pretty new. I've always kind of admired SmartRecruiters from afar anyway, and also as a user in that time. But just give the audience a sense of where you guys are now in terms of customer base and employee-wise and things like that. Just give us a quick overview. Jerome Ternyck: Yeah. So we started the company in 2011. We spent four years in R&D and really what we were building, what we aimed [inaudible 00:00:03:36]. Okay, what is a generational successor to applicant tracking systems? Applicant tracking systems were born out of we need to automate the file cabinet. Resumes were paper based; the internet arrived. Oh my God, candidates can fill in forms, and I can track them in a system. But this whole idea that people are actually tracked as applicants in a system like even the name is wrong. Applicant tracking system doesn't say hire amazing people system. Jerome Ternyck: And having build myself an ATS between 2000 and 2010 when I started SmartRecruiters, I was like, okay, really getting ready. Take a blank sheet of paper and what do we want to get out here? And so we landed on three core things that are talent acquisition suite should do. One, it should help me attract candidates. That speaks to marketing and how you attract candidates and advertising and referrals and good website and good candidate experience. And there's a whole lot of things that need to be done in the area of CRM and marketing and so on. Jerome Ternyck: Second, we said managers have to use it and we have to double down on collaboration because recruiters cannot be successful if the managers aren't playing with them in their system. And so we focused on collaboration, hiring manager engagement, scorecard scheduling, making more that process like super smooth and efficient. And third, it's about recruiter and recruiter productivity. And recruiters nowadays, they're being asked to move mountains, but they have tools and technologies from decades ago. Chris Russell: They're being held back. Jerome Ternyck: And they're completely held back, absolutely. So giving recruiters all of their data processes and suppliers in one system where they can be in control and compliance. And so those three things, recruiter productivity, hiring manager engagement, and candidate experience is what we designed to spend ... we spent almost four and a half years just developing the product. We launched it in 2015 so that's five years ago now. And we've now since then signed just shy of a thousand enterprise customers. We have several thousand smaller companies using our platform on various capacity, but really the enterprise segment a thousand customers, this is where we actually make our money. Our revenue are made there. Jerome Ternyck: Some big names, we have companies like Visa, Bosch, which has like 400,000 employees. Even LinkedIn uses us now as their [inaudible 00:05:56] as they're implementing Twitter. So really large progressive companies that are using SmartRecruiters. We have 300 employees worldwide. We raised $100 million of equity money from various investors, Salesforce being one of our investors. So we're really looking at hey, recruiting is not this administrative automated function as we thought in the past. It's actually a fairly sales and marketing oriented function. It's a competitive advantage to companies would do it well. What's the platform that does that? And this is what we deliver. Chris Russell: Excellent. What do you think of the overall activity happening in the market itself as far as HR tech goes, all the mergers and acquisitions you're seeing bigger players group up smaller players to be an all encompassing platform. What's your overall sense of where we are now in HR tech? Jerome Ternyck: I think we're in a very, very exciting time of HR tech. And that is on two counts. On the core HR, there's a replacement cycle happening with enormous efficiency gains and automation opportunities and that charge is led by Workday in core HR and there's much more happening there. And I think there we're really seeing a very classic replacement cycle of old school HR systems. Jerome Ternyck: On the recruiting side, we're actually seeing a real shift of market because we are going away from, Hey you apply, you are screened and then maybe you get the job. We're going into this is a full scale sales and marketing function and TA leaders are becoming marketers, marketers in campaigns, in nurturing, in sourcing, in referrals, in how they organize it. It's more collaborative. So there's a whole set of a new generation of TA leaders that are actually emerging. Jerome Ternyck: And it's interesting because in HR tech, the world here divides between two types of tier leaders. Those who are going to be swallowed inside the HR system. And it's basically oh you use Taleo, I know this recruiting system from work there. SAP is not better, but you've been on Taleo for ages. Just shut up and keep, keep your life. And that's basically saying recruiting is an admin process. I don't care about winning the best talent, I'm just processing resume here and filling seats. Jerome Ternyck: The other generation of tier leaders are like, no actually guys, if you invest in recruiting, I can deliver better candidates and if you have better people than your competitor, we're going to win as a company. And so how do we actually take recruiting and make this a competitive advantage, which then justifies a proper talent acquisition suite that focuses on how you attract, select, and hire amazing talent at scale. And when you go to the CEO and you say, would you like to have hiring success? Would you like to be able to hire amazing talent on demand? Like you see the eyes are becoming really excited here because yes, every CEO in the world would like to be able to hire amazing talent on demand. They just don't know how to do it. And when it gets gobbled into HR and into processes and back office functions, it's a race to the bottom. It's faster, cheaper. Chris Russell: I can't tell you how many TA leaders I've met who say I'm just stuck with this ATS, usually it's Taleo, let's be honest. And they're paralyzed. They're afraid of that change, and many times they just don't want to do it. They don't want to make that plunge. And those are the ones who are going to get swallowed, right? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah. They definitely are getting swallowed, but it's worse fighting for it because well, I had the example this morning actually. I was on a phone with a TA leader of a 95,000 employee company. And they've been on Taleo forever. A company, very decentralized, not a lot of power in corporate HR, and this one person went on a war to say, I want to replace Taleo and I actually want to put a proper system. The CIO started by saying, over my dead body. We're on [inaudible 00:10:19] shop. We're staying there over my dead body. He got the CHR to approve the project. The CEO said fine. The CIO went behind to the CEO and canceled the project. Chris Russell: Oh my gosh. Jerome Ternyck: This went on for several months. Finally they got the green light, and they started the project six months ago, and they are now live in 17 countries. And this morning I was on the phone to him and he said Jerome, you know what happened this morning? I'm like no, what? He said, I was in a meeting and the CIO publicly praised me in front of the CEO and said, "You know what? I realized I was wrong to push on that because the system's really good and at least now I'm getting my resources." Because the CIO is actually often one of the managers that's suffering the most from recruiting. So I think it's worth the fight because you aren't going to come out of that as a hiring success hero, right? Because the managers need the resources. And if you can give them good candidates, they're going to love you regardless of how hard you were fighting for that system. So it's worth picking the battle. Chris Russell: Yeah, I love that story, Jerome. That's awesome. That's awesome. It's good to hear that. All right. Chris Russell: I've done a lot of work lately on the user experience of the candidate experience, especially around mobile apply and how a lot of systems out there are broken. A lot of these older ATS's come from a desktop era where they force you to log into apply, which is a barrier number one. And you have to put in your password twice. And you have to have all these special characters and it's like all the job seeker wants to do at that point is upload a resume. Why is it so hard for other companies to fix this problem right now? It seems like even some of the newer platforms I've seen don't do a great job at the overall apply process. Any thoughts around how to fix some of that stuff? Jerome Ternyck: I mean one main [inaudible 00:12:15] is that our click to apply ratio across all customers is 37%. Chris Russell: 37%. Okay. So break that down for us. Jerome Ternyck: We converge out of a hundred people who click on apply, 37 actually end up applying. Wow. That same ratio at Taleo is five. Let me translate that in dollars, that means for the same amount of candidates you're going to have to buy seven times more traffic if you're on Taleo so that alone would actually justify a change of system. So there is a large, large number or large gains that can be made in the apply. And if you think of recruiting as marketing, and I'm the CEO and I come to you as the TA leader and I go, so hold on, you're spending our money to advertise job to drive traffic on a page that has a 5% conversion rate. You should not be in your work, right? Like you should not be in this position. Jerome Ternyck: If a CMO would do that, they get fired, right? And so I would really encourage TA leaders to leverage that argument. Wait, wait, this doesn't make any sense. Plus the ones who abandon first aren't the worst ones. They are the best one. The ones that are busy, the ones that are on defense, the one that had a bad day. These are the gains. So not only are you actually reducing your ROI, but you're losing the best candidate. So it's worse optimizing. Jerome Ternyck: I think what's difficult here is the concept of identity management. How you identify users is at the heart of your software. And once you've designed a software to work in a certain way, it's actually hard to change. It's like you build a hotel and reception is this, on the corner of those two streets. And maybe it would make sense that reception is somewhere else, but everything is linked to that. So I think for legacy software it's very, very hard to change their principle. And we do it at SmartRecruiters, you just drop your resume. We actually even expose and apply API so you can drop your resume directly from LinkedIn in one take without ever to have to touch anything or from Indeed or from Seek. We actually just released the Seek apply. So we're actually facilitating the entrance. Jerome Ternyck: And then once you have applied, once you've expressed interest, okay, now let's talk. And if you would like to- Chris Russell: Yeah didn't you have an 'I'm interested' button at one point on the platform? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah. Chris Russell: It's still there isn't it? Jerome Ternyck: It is still here. Yeah, we were the first one to convert or to change the apply now into I'm interested. Chris Russell: Right. Jerome Ternyck: Because this is what you do as a candidate. You're not saying I'm applying. Right. And you're saying, Hey, let's talk. I'm interested, and that alone actually increased our conversion rates by a few percentage point. Chris Russell: I would say too, at some point for some positions you don't even need a resume, you know if you're a janitor or a truck driver. If you just get their name, phone number, email address just to capture that information, then you can contact them afterwards. Do you see that as a trend that's going to happen in the next few years? As far as the way some of these systems do apply's? Jerome Ternyck: I think we're going to see the emergence of a central identity management and a few platforms are at it. Facebook actually manages your identity for a lot of set situation. Google does the same. There's some initiatives now where- Chris Russell: There's a Blockchain I think just came out. Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, Blockchain that just came out led by Yvette Cameron, which we looked at. I think it's a good idea. Generally the fact that I carry my credential, my career- Chris Russell: With you. Jerome Ternyck: With me, it actually makes a lot of sense. Just think about it, you apply to 10 companies. All 10 companies are going to ask you to do a background check. For God's sake, why don't you do the background check before you apply and then you do it once? Rather than 10 times. There's a lot of things like this that makes no sense. Or take the example of a background check but I can say validated skills. I apply and I validated my skills as a Java developer. Like why do you care if I did Stanford, Harvard, or I was self-educated on YouTube. If I can actually be an amazing programmer on Java, you don't need my resume. Chris Russell: Exactly, exactly. Jerome Ternyck: So I think we're going to see a lot more of that happening. Synergization of skills and of resumes. Chris Russell: Excellent. What's new in the platform? I saw you came out with a self scheduling feature, but tell us what else is new with the product. Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, so we actually just wrapped up a good year of innovation and by the latest count, we shipped 200 features this year. Chris Russell: 200 features, wow. Jerome Ternyck: 200 features. And we ship quarterly. So this quarter we done a couple of good things. So sales scheduling en masse. So if you want to schedule certain interviews in 30 seconds, that's your feature. Just select the candidates, click, and watch everybody being scheduled. And schedule in the right way with the right score card, the right indication, the followup in the morning, the followup to the interviewer to filling the scorecard, the reminders to the candidate, the whole infrastructure behind. It's not just schedule and interview. It's like everything that happens before and after. And so it's really nice. Jerome Ternyck: We released [drip 00:17:23] campaigns, which is part of our CRM. So you nurture candidates, which frankly if you actually do a good job at acquiring leads and nurturing them into becoming candidates. Well we actually have a case study where one junior marketeer outperformed 10 professional sourcers. Because what we've said here is okay, advertising doesn't work, which is not true by the way. Advertising still works. Advertising doesn't work. Let's hire sourcers and give them a database, LinkedIn. And then pick up the phone, smile while you dial in, hope your emails are okay. This is exactly as if we'd say to salespeople "Hey, you get no marketing and here's a phone book." This is how sales was done 40 years ago. The reality is you actually can collect new marketing, collect leads and get people in, nurture them, bring them as prospect, which makes a lot more sense. So nurture campaigns is another one. Jerome Ternyck: We released an automated job distribution. So early on I made the decision not to rely on [inaudible 00:18:27] distribution systems but to actually control the job advertising from within SmartRecruiters which is really nice because we now distribute to thousands of job boards, and we're the only one that has a proper click to hire tracking. So we know exactly the cost of a candidate, the cost of an interviewed candidate, the cost of a hire, the quality ratio, how many like, and so- Chris Russell: You had that back in the beginning too, I remember. Jerome Ternyck: Exactly. And so now we created a feature to actually centrally automate all of that, and so you set up roles that the sales job go to this job board, the marketing job go to this one. You actually have rules that are based on dynamic pipelines. So if I receive less than 10 candidates after one week, then up my bid or increase or post to LinkedIn. So this allows for teams to control and to optimize their advertising budget. Jerome Ternyck: We have our programmatic advertising that actually is expanding globally. So we announced a few more markets. This is where we actually programmatically optimize the budget of our customers based on real- Chris Russell: So you're doing some programmatic now? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, we do. And unlike any other programmatic offering, we know what's happening, like we know that last week you interviewed two candidates that got rated high and one of them moved to offer. And so the last thing you need is to spend more money to actually get more new candidates on this job because you don't need more candidates. Indeed doesn't know this. TMP doesn't know this. Recruiters don't react to it so for the first time you have a programmatic engine that's plugged onto your pipeline and actually dynamically optimize not only where you spend money but on which job and how much you spend. So the savings here are really, really interesting. Jerome Ternyck: And then we extended our SmartAssistance. So we have AI based matching, which is very, very nice. We expanded languages. So we released French and German as additional languages- Chris Russell: So the matchings are when a candidate comes in, you score them, and surface the top candidates? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, we use this machine learning for two things. One is all resumes come in, we read the resumes, we analyze the resumes, we enhance the resumes, and we apply the scoring. And we apply the scoring independent of any bias such as your name, your address or where you may be from, how old you are and so on. So we actually by that remove all the prescreening bias, which is massive in most organization to this day. There is actually a survey that come out by the BBC recently where a hundred resumes, same resume got sent to companies. It was in the UK, Adam got 10 interviews, Mohammed got four. Same resume right? Now that, the AI doesn't care if you're called Adam or Mohammed. And so the same scoring and if you have the same scoring becomes really hard to justify that Adam and Mohammed are not getting both interview. So we are removing this bias and of course accelerating the resume screening because you get your scores and you can react on it. You can automate. Jerome Ternyck: And the second thing is we use this to discover candidates. When you open a job, we go back to all your candidates and your employees, and we actually surface matching ones so that when you say to a candidate, "Sorry it didn't work out, but if we ever have a job that matches your skill we'll contact you." Well actually that's exactly what the IS is, it actually surfaces the candidates that you've talked to in the past and brings them forward. So that SmartAssistant as we call it, has been a massive time saver, sourcing saver, reduction of bias actually for everybody. Chris Russell: I hear a lot of TA leaders talk about automation and trying to make things more efficient, save time for the recruiters. And it sounds like you're really pushing a lot of those types of features, the product just to save time and automate as much as possible while still being candidate friendly. Right? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah we want to leverage automation to give time back to the recruiters to make it more human, more collaborative and to a certain extent automation is your friend here. Because the two hours are saved scheduling interviews is two hours I could spend following up with people who were interviewed yesterday and are keenly waiting to hear what has happened. Just as simple as that. The automation is, Hey actually those 17 candidates are still in stage new, they've been there for five days. Duh. What are you doing? Right? So that's also automation. I can reject them all if you want, but you can also look at them. Jerome Ternyck: Just helping recruiters deal with the volumes so that actually they can do what they want, which is offer candidates an amazing experience. I don't think any recruiter in the world gets into their job thinking my job in life is to offer a shitty candidate experience. It's just the consequences of them being overwhelmed by lack of technology and just too many things happening. Chris Russell: Yeah, definitely. I want to ask about Google for a minute. Couple fronts there. Google for jobs. Were you an early adopter of that in terms of pushing your clients' jobs to that? And secondly, what kind of traffic are you seeing from that particular platform itself? Jerome Ternyck: So yes, we were an early adopter, part of the initial launch actually working with Google on that in proximity. I mean they are a few miles from here, so that's good. I think Google needs, and this feedback we have given them, they still need to identify properly who is the ATS. For now they are applying a Google methodology, which is I want to buy a flight from Paris to San Francisco. Then they just tell me yeah, you can do this one and then I have Expedia and this and this and that. But the problem here is that this is not about booking a flight. Ultimately if you're looking for a job and you find something at Visa, they're going to send you to SmartRecruiters, ZipRecruiter, Glassdoor, Indeed, LinkedIn ... But the truth is wherever you go, you actually are going to end up at SmartRecruiter because that's how you apply to a job at Visa. Jerome Ternyck: And so I think this is one optimization that Google, and I know they've been working on it and it's not an easy problem to solve. They have to make the life of candidates easier and instead of "selling" sending traffic to intermediaries here to actually allow candidates to go straight to the source. And if they do that, they'll get corporate recruiters way more interested. Because today most of my Google for jobs traffic is hidden behind LinkedIn, Glassdoor, Indeed, and the others because they are the ones receiving traffic. Chris Russell: Yeah. Do you think Google will ever try to monetize Google for jobs? There's speculation out there that they will. I don't think they will but what's your take? Jerome Ternyck: Oh yeah, I think they will. Chris Russell: You think they will. Jerome Ternyck: Yeah. I think they will. Funny enough is actually just talking to someone there, and we were talking about our programmatic advertising solution there. Oh, this is really interesting. Where do you get traffic from? I said we get at this... and then I added "We're waiting for you guys to open pay per click on Google for jobs." And I had a big smile on the face of that Google employee because yeah, of course ... I think they're going to do it. But to do that they have to be able to know who are they selling to. Are they going to sell traffic to third parties or are they going to sell traffic to employers? And I think that that debate maybe has been decided at Google but hasn't been announced. I don't think it's clear yet. Chris Russell: Yeah, yeah. Were you surprised about the Google for Hire shutdown? Jerome Ternyck: I was and I wasn't. Chris Russell: Because that kind of seems like ... They just didn't really get that market maybe in terms of selling into, I don't know. Jerome Ternyck: So Google Hire started out of an attempt to increase retention and add more value for the Google customers, and meant to be as one of many apps that they would actually build. An easy use case if you have collaboration. I don't think that was ever a real push to say we're going to be the hiring platform that's going to win. And so I did not see the corporate commitment behind that initiative. That would really- Chris Russell: Right. Just not their heart into it. Jerome Ternyck: Yeah. I don't think so. And so resources were reallocated, product doesn't get supported, and they shut it down. I think it's one of the qualities of Google actually. They know when to say stop, and I see that's paying off. Now will Google keep adding more tools to their business customer? I hope so. I'm a big Google user and big Google fan. We use the whole G Suite here at SmartRecruiters and it's great. Do they get into advanced business application like recruiting? That's a step. Chris Russell: How about Facebook? I don't know, they came out with their Facebook job board. They're starting to work on some ATS's now. I'm not sure if you're a part of that at all. But tell me more about your relationship with Facebook Jobs itself. Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, so again, we were part of that initial integration, initial launch. So all the jobs are pushed to Facebook Jobs. We actually did quite some work on our end to identify and to allow customers to point the right jobs to the right pages. Because it's very nice if you are SmartRecruiters then your jobs go to your SmartRecruiters page. You are a small company, you will recruit 100 people a year. That's all cute and cool. Jerome Ternyck: But if you're Bosch, and you have 900 legal entities around the world, then chances are you have more than one Facebook page and now actually discerning from a central ATS, which job's go to which parts of your Facebook pages is an interesting question. So we actually built a Facebook Jobs management module that really directs the right jobs to the right Facebook pages and the right brands. Chris Russell: Does the user have to authenticate their page with you guys? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah. So they actually do authenticate as the administrator, admin of that page on Facebook and then it's synchronized. So that's nice. Facebook on their end did some work on 'Apply with Facebook'. So you can apply directly from Facebook to SmartRecruiters and enhancing this. We actually have some more initiative going on at the Hiring Success conference in two weeks. We have a hackathon. So we have 20 teams competing in the hackathon. And- Chris Russell: Are these your developers? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, so we have some of our developers. We have customers bringing developers. So Square was bringing in developers. There's discussion about Facebook actually bringing in people and others that will be soon announced, but some big brands. LinkedIn of course who are scaling at LinkedIn or deploying at LinkedIn. And they're connecting SmartRecruiters deeply into their system. So one of our core principle has been API first. So we have a very powerful development environment, which allows more sophisticated customers to build custom integrations, custom experiences for their users or in the case of LinkedIn to actually merge what they get from an ATS where they're from their own system to actually optimize their own recruiting process. Chris Russell: Yeah. You're such a energetic, passionate supporter of hiring in general. Where does this come from, Jerome? Where's the early seed of helping people get jobs, and helping companies recruit better come from? Jerome Ternyck: It's interesting because I truly think that was my calling in life. It's really very interesting, and it was my first job. My very, very first job. I wanted to create a company. I went to Prague in the Czech Republic. I'm from France. And at the time Czech Republic, like the rest of the former Soviet block was expanding, and it was lots of opportunities. I got to Prague, and I started to ask people, what can you do here? What are some good business ideas? And everybody had one similar talk track, which was, Oh, you can do anything but gee, it's hard to hire good people. So I didn't have any money. And so I said, well maybe I could start a recruitment agency. Jerome Ternyck: And there I was 23 year old, I didn't speak a word of Czech. And I started- Chris Russell: You were 23 in Prague. You started your own recruiting agency? Jerome Ternyck: Yeah, and I started placing people. What's really interesting at that time is that all of the candidates had zero experience education in any field relevant to the market economy that my customers were looking for. So you had L'Oreal coming and say, I need a marketing manager with at least five years experience and a degree in marketing and speaking good English. And I would say, well nobody has five years experience in marketing in this country because five years ago there was no marketing. Oh shit, okay, you're right. Nobody has a degree in marketing because there is no marketing degrees in any Czech university at the time. I might be able to find you someone that speaks English is creative and we think could be a good marketer. Jerome Ternyck: And those roots of actually being in a position to figure out what could a person be good at independent of anything they had done before is what gave me the passion for recruiting. And to this day, I will fight. In scorecard for example, when you evaluate candidates, don't evaluate candidates on the must haves, evaluate them on must achieves. Back to my example, if I can code in Java like a God, do you care if I went to Stanford or I learned it on YouTube? You don't. So don't make a scorecard that says degree from a great university, five years experience, this is irrelevant. Make a scorecard that says amazing Java coder, good team player. Create. Okay great. So now you can evaluate me on scenes that I can achieve. And that has stayed with me. Jerome Ternyck: To this day I look at recruiting, I just want to match people to jobs at [inaudible 00:32:39]. I think it's a technology problem and I think it's a problem that can and will be solved by a technology player. And I'd like for SmartRecruiters to be that player. Chris Russell: Awesome. And last question for you, Jerome. What would the Jerome of today tell the Jerome of 2011 when you first started around this, about what you've learned along this journey? Jerome Ternyck: So if the Jerome of today, professionally, I would say get in tech faster. I spent the first 10 years doing a recruitment agency. I had good success. We ended up with like 300 people in the company and it was all nice. But in the end we were just helping one person at a time. And I think I would have loved to get into tech a bit earlier. On my management and my own personal leadership, I come from a place of vulnerability and authenticity these days that I did not have the courage, the experience to have back when I was 25. When you're 25 you want to conquer the world and you're protecting yourself. You are not self-confident. And I realized over the years that vulnerability and authenticity are just really core leadership skills. I'm here and with the team. I really love my Smartians, the whole reason why we are here. So I'm driven by purpose and leading by authenticity and vulnerability. So that's one thing I would advise myself.