In this nuanced discussion, Malcolm and Simone analyze how societal elites can become embroiled in unethical activities. They delve into group psychology and the human need for belonging. The conversation explores how insular communities formed around shared interests or backgrounds can lead to normalization of taboo behaviors. Malcolm and Simone advocate thoughtful examination of these complex social dynamics rather than speculative assumptions.

Malcolm: [00:00:00] male sexuality is pulled between two extremes as a guy, you can optimize for gender dimorphism,

Malcolm: so you are assuring that the thing you're breeding with is female. So this is larger butts, larger breasts, larger fingernails, longer hair, more voluptuous shape. Or you can be optimizing for fertility window. The problem is, is that you're actually typically optimizing for the opposite. When you're optimizing for fertility window, you are optimizing for youth, which means you're typically optimizing for smaller breasts, smaller butt, smaller, waist hip ratio and stuff like that.

Malcolm: And so we looked at the data on this and this is a really shocking thing that we found is that the amount of wealth. A guy had in our data set correlated with which of these extremes he seemed to optimize

Simone: for.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm: Hello, Simone. Hello, Malcolm. This is an edited recording. We had [00:01:00] originally recorded an episode on this topic and I decided I wanted to sanitize it as much as possible because I feel that this is a topic that really, really needs to be talked about in a sane way, but that is incredibly controversial.

Malcolm: And so we don't want to. Step on any toes with this or make any potentially false or spurious accusations with this. Specifically, what we want to talk about is with this recent movie that's come out, there's been a lot of people being like, the concept of circles within sort of the wealthy class that traffic in underage women is, is a complete fantasy.

Malcolm: It's a complete fictional thing. And I do think a lot of this stuff is, is, you know, sort of conspiracy theories that have gone a little crazy. However, what we learned from the Epstein case is that it's, it's not a [00:02:00] complete fantasy. Like there was at least one real circle in which this was happening. And the, the reason I want to talk about this is , how could this happen in my adult life?

Malcolm: I do not meet many people who like to see themselves as bad people. Most people want to see themselves as good people who are trying to make the world a better place. So how did giant networks of some of the wealthiest people in the world? Get roped into something like this and I think we can look at this as an isolated case But I really don't think it is there's been a lot of people freaking out about a specific campaign manager having potentially artwork that looks like Kids are being hurt in it in the artwork now There is actually no proof this artwork that he owns it that he has it in his house But what no one is really denying is that the artwork itself exists and is [00:03:00] real and is in museums sometimes, or is on big displays that people are funding, that people are paying a lot of money for this artwork.

Malcolm: It shows

Simone: up in ad campaigns. I mean,

Malcolm: yeah, like, like the, the, that the artwork exists is, and so this is what we mean by sort of this place is. Is people can tie something, like they can be like, this guy owns this artwork, right? And then they go in a whole rabbit hole with that. And then the other side can be like, well, no, actually, he's not the one who owns the artwork.

Malcolm: And there's not like this third group that's saying, okay. But even if he's not, why does this artwork exist, and why is it being shown in, like, art museums and stuff like that? Like, it seems to be that a certain class of people within our society, the, the, the, the group of people, or one cultural group within our society, that goes to things like art museums, doesn't have, , an extreme resistance.

Malcolm: to this sort of depiction. If [00:04:00] you were to hang one of these pieces in like a Bass Pro store, or like a traditional black barber shop, or like our local Indian marketplace, you would be beaten near to death. Like, immediately. Like... The most cultural groups in America just would have zero tolerance of this within sort of, I guess I call them the art museum class in our society.

Malcolm: There is a level of tolerance to this. And I think another place you saw this, there was the recent scandal was the clothing brand, right? Where they had some

Simone: name it with Balenciaga.

Malcolm: Well, are you sure we can name it? Yeah. I've been trying not to name anything. Okay. With Balenciaga. Now, the thing to remember is who is Balenciaga's client base, right?

Malcolm: Like, they are sort of an elite cultural group within our society. The people who are creating this ad campaign are literally the world experts in what this demographic within society Considers. Okay. What they want, what [00:05:00] their needs are, what will catch on was in their cultural group. It's not like this, this campaign was created by some like random wacko.

Malcolm: You know, the marketing department at Valenciaga is literally the world specialist at how do we appeal to, I guess what I'd call the art museum cultural group. Right. And clearly like this, it's not like, Okay. These campaigns were like the work of one person, like they got multiple levels of approval.

Malcolm: Right? So they thought that this would appeal to that cultural group. And so the question is, and where we wanted to go into all this is without making any very, like, specific accusations here. Is it. There appears to be an elite cultural group in our society that has much more tolerance for this sort of thing than any other cultural group in our society.

Malcolm: And when I go out in the world and like, I meet normal people, people who are interested in, in And people who [00:06:00] present physically, like really young, that's just not that common. That's not like a common thing in the normal world. So why is it so common among the ultra wealthy in our society? Like that, that that's the question.

Malcolm: That I think everybody recognizes is like weird that it's happening. But the only two ways we have for engaging with this question is either just, you know, wild conspiratorial speculation or saying that even asking this question. Is conspiratorial and we want to try to approach this from a more even keeled perspective.

Simone: Right. Because we've talked about this in other episodes, the essentially like dog whistling effect that you can get.

Simone: with a culture let's say you're Mormon and you can tell that someone else is a Mormon when others can't because you can kind of see oh, they're definitely wearing garments or something. It makes you feel really good and it makes you feel a lot closer to them. So is perhaps all of this really blatant.

Simone: Lolita stuff that kind of [00:07:00] signaling? Is that what you're thinking? Well,

Malcolm: I mean, so this is what's interesting. So I think historically, if you look at conservative power groups, in the 50s, 60s, 70s there were a lot of gay organizations within the conservative power circles. And I think That and I, I say this because I have tangential connections to secret societies that were definitely disproportionately gay and conservative power brokers back in the day like Simone and I have unique access into the world of secret societies due to like it.

Malcolm: our jobs and our backgrounds. And I can say that at least historically, that was definitely true. So what was it? Gay

Simone: is very different from one

Malcolm: gay today. I'm talking about gay in the 60s and 70s. I'm talking about the way it was perceived by society. Sexual expressions, especially on the conservative side, might be a way.

Malcolm: That organically groups begin to bond if they are in [00:08:00] elite power centers in society. Now,

Simone: hold on. So what, are you signaling that like kind of to get into a gang, for example, you might need to commit a pretty serious crime. Is this kind of something similar? Like it is so that you have dirt on this person and that they're in your group, but also if they leave your group, you can destroy them because you know that they've done something that's career ending.

Simone: For gangs, they're

Malcolm: being sent to jail for this. I think it might be completely organic. Huh. Okay, like 1960s, 1970s conservative gay groups, right? Okay. So, any of, a, a, a, let's say there's a small group of, of, of gay people in this movement, right? Okay, okay. Just large, large up and coming group of, of, of rising conservative thought And a small

Simone: group that's actually really gay.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm: actually gay. Okay, so they all start just organically engaging with each other, right? Mm-hmm. , so they all find out who all the other people are in this group. Okay, well, they're doing this just for their own personal [00:09:00] pleasure to start, but then it becomes clear. Somebody walks in your office looking for a promotion or something like that, and they're part of this group, and you are part of this group.

Malcolm: Well, Well, s**t, I better give them a promotion because they have dirt on me, right? But also, we have this sign of camaraderie, so let's not even put them in a situation where they would need to use this dirt on me, right? So, essentially, you get a system where, organically, everyone with this mutually assured destruction on each other has a slight 20 30% advantage in, every sort of interaction where somebody else in that group is involved.

Malcolm: Which leads to the entire group rising really quickly in the ranks. So it's not like at any point anybody decided to do something malicious, right? Because what I'm trying to ask is realistically, how in this world did networks of elite act? Like, that seems insane to me that that happened.

Malcolm: How did that happen? This is what I'm thinking here. Because I guess you could say, oh, Satan worshipers or whatever, and they [00:10:00] all went into this. Intentionally to hurt people. I don't know. There's that In my adult life, I just don't run into that many people who genuinely like hurting other people.

Simone: Most people. Yeah, or genuine Nobody, we've, we've come across people who are could probably we wouldn't know, but I think it's plausible, especially from our research into sexuality, that they're, they're aroused by, what should I say, younger phenotypes. But most, I've never come across someone who's yeah, I'm a Satanist.

Simone: I've never come across someone who is a Satanist. And I do exist.

Malcolm: I'll tell you why you haven't come across a Satanist though, actually. Okay, why? Because I have seen them in the data. Like you see clearly some progressive elites are actual They wouldn't call themselves satanists, they'd call themselves like, I don't know, they have some word for it, right, where it's like a type of wiccanism that's like edgy and cool.

Malcolm: It's because you and I are publicly known as, even back in the day when we were more invited to like elite progressive events as [00:11:00] really hating woo. Um, And the satanist groups are the groups that are most connected with like goop and like other woo like stuff because they're involved in it because it's edgy.

Malcolm: They're not involved in it because like they think they're being evil. They're involved in it because they're trying to be. subversive in a way that gets a rise out of a culture that is so dominated by ennui. I mean, that's what I think was happening with those ads. The

Simone: Oh, the Balenciaga ads. Yeah.

Simone: The Balenciaga

Malcolm: ads. What was really happening there? I mean, I think that to a certain part of like wealthy, let's say LA society, their lives are so dominated by ennui. That it requires just like extreme offensiveness to get any sort of a reaction out of them. So I think that that's why they're engaging with that.

Malcolm: But now let's talk about the, the other thing here, because I think that there might actually be a something going on here. So when we were doing our sexuality book, one of the [00:12:00] really interesting things about male sexuality is it's pulled between two extremes by And by that, what I mean is as a guy, you can optimize for gender dimorphism, right?

Malcolm: So you are assuring that the thing you're breeding with is female. So this is larger butts, larger breasts, larger fingernails, longer hair, more voluptuous shape. Or you can be optimizing for fertility window. The problem is, is that you're actually typically optimizing for the opposite. When you're optimizing for fertility window, you are optimizing for youth, which means you're typically optimizing for smaller breasts, smaller butt, smaller, waist hip ratio and stuff like that.

Malcolm: And so we looked at the data on this and this is a really shocking thing that we found is that the amount of wealth. A guy had in our data set correlated with which of these extremes he seemed to optimize

Simone: for. Now we saw this [00:13:00] both in the research and in the data set that we got from the survey you created and ran.

Simone: So I can quote from our book. You wrote, in addition, our data backs up a pattern that has been observed in other studies that wealthy men prefer smaller breasts. This pattern is even more striking than we anticipated in our data. Not a single man in the wealthiest category of those Our survey reported preferring a breast size above average, with around half preferring small breasts.

Simone: Our survey respondents who reported being in the second highest well category reported preferring small breasts at a rate of 17% and a robust 84 preferred, sorry, 84% preferred Breasts of average size or below contrast that with the lowest income category of men who took our survey, who reported preferring small breasts at only 5% and the second poorest preferring them at around the same level, only 4% in this case.

Simone: So there's a clear, like

Malcolm: inverse relationship. You were talking about as well. It was done by like a website for like [00:14:00] wealthy guys to find I don't know. Partners. Yeah, so there's been a number of studies on this and you can see from our data like this isn't a small effect. It's not like a Oh, 20% here, 20% there.

Malcolm: It's an enormous effect size. So it would

Simone: seem that maybe it's not even that people as much are like born being super turned on or we'll say sexually interested in youth versus female dimorphism. It is a product of your perceived sense of resource.

Malcolm: Let's talk about evolutionarily why you would have this, right?

Malcolm: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you can only choose one partner, which throughout history has been true of most middle income and below men even in, even in societies where a man can get multiple partners the vast majority of people in those societies didn't get multiple partners. Right. So you're choosing one.

Malcolm: Potential partners. You got to make absolutely sure they're female. However, if you can just get lots of partners, which, wealthy and [00:15:00] powerful men could typically get throughout history, then what matters especially just as opposed to you're a wealthy and powerful man, but then you're, it's actually, okay.

Malcolm: Suppose you're a wealthy and powerful man and you can either get only one partner or you can get lots of partners. If you can get lots of partners, it doesn't really matter what you're optimizing for. You're just optimizing for volume. But if you can get one partner because you can care for all of their offspring, right?

Malcolm: Because wealth is not an issue for you. You could have 20 kids, right? You are going to optimize for youth when you marry that partner. Yeah,

Simone: because it will produce maximum number of kids, like biggest lifetime. For example, we just we're, we're finally ready to like do chickens at our house. Right. And we could either choose to get hens or we can choose to get chicks and it getting chicks.

Simone: If we get chicks now. That means we have to wait until basically January before they start even laying eggs. So that's like a significant amount of time investment, wealth investment. We have to get the feed, do all the stuff for them[00:16:00] to wait until they're ready, but then they will produce far more eggs over time.

Simone: Right. They're going to get more life out of them, more eggs out of them than we're going to get. If we buy mature. Chickens. So maybe this is what's going on is, is like if, if we were, even if we were like very resource poor in the moment, would we be getting a, an egg laying hen that we know, is healthy enough and fat enough to immediately start producing either meat for us or eggs, or are we going to get chickens that we have to wait forever until it produces anything that will sustain us?

Malcolm: So, so yeah, so, and here's something really interesting. So I'm going to talk about something that happens in women and say, I think something similar might be happening here. So, one of the things we talk about happening in women is that women will typically prefer a partner who already has other women interested in them and they'll even prefer partners who are already married.

Malcolm: Like they'll choose a guy who has a ring over another guy because it shows there's other female interest in the guy. Well, you get this interesting phenomenon where like during concerts, and we've seen this throughout history. So you can see this going all the way back to who is that mob guy who is the singer?

Malcolm: Frank Sinatra. Frank Sinatra. Frank [00:17:00] Sinatra. Yeah, you see the Frank Sinatra. You saw this

Simone: with Liszt Franz Liszt. The Liszt, I can't, Lisztomania, the, the, the pianist, I believe. Mozart, you,

Malcolm: you saw this because where women would start screaming in the room and then some of them would pass out, right?

Malcolm: What is happening there? Well, what I think is happening there is Women in general get more turned on by a guy as they think other women are interested in that guy. However, some women, a minority of women, like a small portion of women are born without the ability to downregulate this phenomenon. And so they essentially end up feeding off of the other women around them in their arousal to this group until it essentially overheats their brain and they pass out.

Malcolm: Not exactly overheats their brain, but you get what I mean. It's like a A sensory overload. Yeah, it's a sensory overload that causes them to pass out. Well, I think with most guys, when they get wealthy, they're like, Oh yeah, I like small breasts, right? Like normal stuff. Right. But there's a small portion of guys [00:18:00] who they get wealthy and the system doesn't have a, an off meter on it.

Malcolm: And they're like actually interested in young people and and I think this group is, because this is the thing that weirds me out, I look at Jeff Epstein's plane list, right? And this is like a lot of celebrities, a lot of celebrities, like a lot of people who I'd heard of. Right. And like, when I think about the people who I've casually met.

Malcolm: I do not see that many people interested in young people. That's just not a thing. That's not like a thing among my friend groups. That is not a thing that I've ever thought about. Like, how is it possible that there's that many celebrities who are interested in this? Right? So there's really only two things.

Malcolm: One is, is that their, their biology could be adapting to their perceived level of power which would really explain this. It would also explain why the media is so terrified about it getting out, that this is actually happening, because... Even if they can't access these groups, this flip in their [00:19:00] perceived personal power might've already happened and they may secretly have these desires and they may have some like aspiration to enter these groups or what's happening is that it's useful for them in terms of growing and maintaining their power.

Malcolm: Like it creates like these organic power groups that we've been talking about. Either way. I actually think that both are probably happening at the same time. Yeah. So I guess my takeaway is, is I think that this is a real phenomenon. That there actually are real groups among some elite circles that are doing

Simone: this.

Simone: There are two dynamics. One is that there appears to be a correlation between wealth and interest in youth. And two, that there appears to be this like... Dirty secret trust group like fraternity that is created through shared indulgence in socially toxic hobbies. Does that make sense?

Malcolm: Yeah. But here's a really interesting thing about this phenomenon because we have a pretty [00:20:00] wide access into what the elite in our society are doing, like much more than the average person would have through operating different secret societies, having, having gone to their stuff.

Malcolm: I'd say that this desire is almost absent. Are completely absent from what I call the dissident elite. I just have not seen it in those communities. Those

Simone: are the communities They don't, I don't think the dissident elite, Really

Malcolm: feel powerful, because they feel attacked by everyone.

Simone: Yeah, they feel attacked, they're like, more homesteady, more let me set up my bunker, let me get guns, let me get, let me get, farm, sustain my family, they're coming for me.

Simone: Let's build a militia, like that's their, that's their dirty little secret. Right. And not so much not so much, well, and maybe there's, there's also a cultural, more party element, like an indulgent, effete, boffinalian. No, I think their tiny little

Malcolm: secret is that they tell the truth about what they believe.

Malcolm: And in our society, that can get you so cancelled. So when I think about the dissident elite circles, what do we all do? We... We, we sit around and we're [00:21:00] like, it turns out that certain parts of a human sociological profile are heritable and they're changing over time and the general population, her, her, her You make it

Simone: sound like these are all old men who wear suspenders.

Malcolm: Right, right, no, no. It turns out, there's, there's not what they sound like. This offensive thing is actually probably true. No, no. But what I'm saying is if that's how they organically bond in a way that could get everyone in these circles mutually canceled, so they don't need to engage with this other

Simone: stuff.

Simone: Well, do you think it's, it's more just like. being sexually prudish as well, that in, in these more progressive power circles where there are rumors of these, these

Simone: circles, it's more, it's, it's a much more culturally like sexually permissive and sexually deviant society versus the dissident right circles, which are much more sex negative.

Malcolm: I guess I don't understand. I think that that's not it at all. I mean, [00:22:00] the elite circles that we are in are very sexually permissive.

Malcolm: On both sides? Yeah, on both sides. They're very sexually permissive. They, they are all into yeah, I, I think that that's just wrong. I think what it is, is the way that they engage with subversiveness. These groups are engaging with subversiveness, like the dissident groups, and trying to make society better and trying to be honest and trying to tell the truth.

Malcolm: That is how they... And by make society better, I mean move it away from the dominant cultural group right now. I mean, they are fighting against the big bad. I mean, historically, that's what the Illuminati was. They were fighting against the Catholic Church. They were a group of people who said, We don't like this group that's controlling our society right now.

Malcolm: Let's fight against it. Right? The reason why they have to be... In these secret organizations is because they're fighting the, the powers that be mm-hmm. , the people who control the powers that be, the people who control the, the media and what's true and academia like this, this sort of monoculture in our society.

Malcolm: If you are just going along with everything they're doing, then all [00:23:00] you can really do is dunk on the amount of power you have over other people. And I can almost think of no bigger sign of that. Oh, than, especially if you're a community. Keep in mind, these people have almost zero fertility rate.

Malcolm: So, I mean, where are they getting these kids, right? You are in a community where kids are a, an extremely scarce asset. Yeah. Where, as within our groups, oh, I also think this is another thing. I think within the extreme progressive groups, it's pretty common for these people to not have kids

Simone: of their own.

Simone: Well, and I guess it's, it's it's a lot harder to be interested. Do you think it's, I mean, I feel like parents are a lot more defensive of children and you'd be a lot more turned off by

Malcolm: this, right? You talk about the dissident. Yeah, they're like all parents. Yeah. You talk about doing something to harm a kid, you get a knuckle sandwich pretty quickly.

Malcolm: Whereas in these other groups they don't have kids often, and so there's probably less of a perception of their inherent humanity. Oh, it's easier to

Simone: dehumanize children in a culture where children are largely absent. Yeah. Creepy. [00:24:00] No. Creepy. Yeah. Well. It's definitely

Malcolm: really happening.

Malcolm: Anybody who tells you it isn't happening, Epstein. And, and, and they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. But once we got Epstein, it was handled. It's over. It's handled. It's over. It's once we arrested, oh, meth dealer, the meth epidemic is over. And it's yeah, but didn't the meth dealer die mysteriously in prison?

Malcolm: Couldn't that only have happened? If this was still a phenomenon that was going on in our society and people needed to shut him up and they're like, no, that was an accident. They just needed to kill the one guy and then it was all over. There to me is no more of a sign that this is still happening, that we still don't know what happened to Epstein.

Malcolm: Hmm.

Simone: Well. They're getting better at hiding it, I guess. That's

Malcolm: Well, hey, they were good at hiding it for a long time before Epstein too, I mean Yeah, I guess

Simone: he was going for a good long time. A good

Malcolm: long time with a lot of powerful people in our society.

Simone: Yeah, pretty wild. Oh,

Malcolm: that's bad. Hold on, [00:25:00] actually, I want to look this up.

Malcolm: I'm just trying to see if

Simone: If Jelaine Maxwell is dead. I think she's still

Malcolm: alive. Well, no, I mean, I, I think that Yeah, I was just checking. Yeah, Elon was not on the Epstein flight list. And I think that shows the type of thing that we're talking about, right? And he's actually right now advocating for the DOG to do more to get the full list released.

Malcolm: Which is like, why hasn't the full list been released? Again, the, the, the malevolent players are still in positions of power. And we have good guys out there, And it's important that, that just because we have one or two differences with them, that we don't attack them. We're, we're all on the same side, we're trying to, to protect kids. Hide

Simone: your kids, people.

Malcolm: Hide your kids! Hide your wife!

Simone: I, I just wives are safe, apparently. I, it is terrifying. Genuinely scary. Yeah,

Malcolm: so... No, no, I mean, this is really happening. This is really happening. And there's a number of reasons why it could be happening, but I think that...

Malcolm: What's interesting out there is I think that almost everyone engaging with this [00:26:00] is either engaging with it as like pure speculative conspiracy theory, which I think people to dismiss it or they're engaging with it as just like insane.

Malcolm: Like,

Simone: you know, What I appreciate about this conversation is that it's a discussion of this issue from the perspective of why would.

Simone: Why would he like normal humans do this? Because I think normally when it's discussed, it's like these, these disgusting, terrifying monsters. You can barely imagine as human, like that are, doing things that you can't even possibly model. And what we're trying to say here is, okay, well, actually like from a behavioral standpoint, there appears to be robust evidence suggesting that people who do have a lot of resources and wealth.

Simone: will find themselves attracted to youth at higher rates and signs of youth at higher rates and that also there seem to be patterns at every level of society from like street gangs to you know the highest echelons of power to create these fraternities and [00:27:00] trust Circles around forbidden and highly legal and, and destroying like career or life destroying things, right?

Simone: When

Malcolm: they're trying to normalize it now is like this whole map phenomenon and stuff like that, minor attracted person. Oh, it's, it's a new, it's a new trend.

Malcolm: But what I'm saying is the normalization of maps is definitely a thing now. Really? Trying to make this a protected class in our society. And I don't know. I mean, anyone who is acting on this. I don't know. I, I just, I, I see it as a slippery slip. You make it a protected class, right? They can find each other more easily.

Malcolm: I , it could disempower them to an extent. But this group I think is just so entrenched right now. I, I, I, I definitely would not say that they need to be but

Simone: but you would never say that they need to be . No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's definitely not what you're saying. No, no, no,

Malcolm: no, no, no, no. They're a protected class. That's a really mean thing to say.

Simone: Mm hmm. You're definitely not saying that people should

Malcolm: these people and , but you'll just be called a [00:28:00] conspiracy

Simone: theorist. And that's wrong. No, that's, that's that's, that's definitely wrong. That's doxing, right? That's not what we're condoning at all. No, no, no, no, no, no. Well, all right, well, you've got some chicks to feed. I've got some kids to pick up. Shall we reconvene downstairs? I am excited

Malcolm: to!

Simone: I love you, Malcolm. I

Malcolm: love you too, Simone.

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