“{T}he most important thing is just to be a bystander [ally], give what you can, do what you can, but we need to come out this pandemic kinder and more compassionate, not cruel and more indifferent.”

In this episode, Scarlet speaks with Kon Karapanagiotidis, a Churchill Fellow, CEO and Founder of the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre (ASRC). Established in 2001, the ASRC stands as a testament to his visionary aspiration to ‘create a place of home and welcome where no one was turned away.’

Growing up as the child of refugees and witnessing firsthand the hardships of exploitation and racism in rural Victoria, Kon's connection to the plight of refugees in Australia is deeply personal. Over the span of 22 years, Kon's unwavering dedication has garnered him numerous accolades, including the prestigious Order of Australia, for his exceptional contributions in aiding and advocating for refugees. His commitment to this cause remains steadfast, as he continues to work towards reshaping the Australian ethos, to foster a culture that wholeheartedly embraces refugees and provides them with fair and universal support.

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EPISODE 5: TRANSCRIPT - KON KARAPANAGIOTIDIS

Yellow Edge: Yellow Edge in association with the Winston Churchill Trust proudly presents the Wayfinder Podcast. In this series, we ask high performing individuals how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill Fellows. Having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field internationally.

The Wayfinder explores the often winding paths of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogs, the trials and tribulations faced along the way. And now your host, Scarlet Bennett

Scarlet Bennett: Kon Karapanagiotidis is the CEO and Founder of the Asylum Seeker Resource Center, the largest independent human rights organisation for refugees and people seeking asylum in Australia. I am Scarlet Bennett and welcome to the Wayfinder Podcast. Kon's organisation assists thousands of people every year, supported by more than 1,200 volunteers and 125 staff. Tell us about the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre today, Kon. If I was a fly on a wall observing a day in the life at the Centre, what would I see?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Thank you for having me. Coming to you from the land of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation, you would see a passionate organisation filled with inspiring and dedicated staff and volunteers that are very much at the coal face being the safety net that the government should be.

People at the coal face providing housing, food, legal advice, healthcare, welcome, assistance finding your first job, your first opportunity to study in this country. You'd find a place buzzing with voices and cultures from all around the world, people that sadly had  to flee their countries because of persecution and oppression, hoping to find safety and peace in Australia.

Scarlet Bennett: And how has the work you do evolved over time? You know, if that's what the snapshot looks like now, can you speak a little bit to the Centre's origins and how your work might have changed over the years you've been in operation?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: We started in really, uh, humble settings, established in eight weeks as a TAFE school project with a group of students I was teaching at the time. Opened up in a 20 square meter little shop-phone with one phone, one table, one chair, providing food a couple of days a week to people seeking asylum. Most Australians don't know that thousands of people while going through the process of trying to prove they're a refugee are forbidden from working, having healthcare or access to Centrelink. So we started running on a couple $100 a week on the smell of an oily rag  and over the last 21 years, unfortunately, I've had to continue to grow and grow and grow.

How with change has been one: the scale of what we had to offer. There's almost 40 different services we provide under the one roof right now, from housing to food, to legal assistance and medical care. What's changed has been the political environment has become tougher and tougher, and while we have an optimism with a change of government at the moment, nothing has really changed.

And so what we've seen-- probably since 1996, you know, has been a politicising of a humanitarian issue. And when I founded the ASRC back in June of 2001, it was quite the year, because what happened in August, the Tampa, where the Howard government at the time refused more than 400 people from Afghanistan, the right to sick asylum in Australia.

And sadly, what happened a month later was 9/11. And forever refugees, innocent human beings fleeing torture and war and persecution were conflated with the war and terror. And what we've seen predominantly bipartisan for the last two decades has been a politicising and demonizing of refugees instead of a protecting and humanising of them.

So a lot of how we've changed is so much of our energy and time is spent trying to win hearts and minds and change cruel and unjust policies.

Scarlet Bennett: Hmm, that makes sense. I understand that you grew up in a working class family and country Victoria. How did your childhood experience in an immigrant family influence your decision to embrace this work?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, look, everything's really deeply personal for me. When my father was alive, you know, he spoke about having to leave school at the age of nine and you know, go and work the fields cause his parents were so poor. My mom at the age of 12, Um, my dad on his side, his parents were refugees having to flee the Pondian genocide, um, some century ago. Watching my parents struggle and being raised in poverty, watching my parents work on tobacco farms in a little Victorian country town called Mount Beauty, and then in factories here in Melbourne until their bodies couldn't take it anymore. Having grown up in a little country town, where I experienced a lot of racism, moved to the city and experienced a lot of bullying when I was going through high school, I think these things were really pivotal in shaping perspective, pride in who I was and where I came from, and the lessons of my parents were very much about being proud of your story and your history of being Greek Australian.

Um, never taking anything for granted, not being afraid to work hard, and to think of other people before yourself. And I think those things were deep, deep influences in shaping the person that I am. That in the work I do now, I always think that would quite easily be my parents as immigrants or my grandparents as refugees seeking welcome in sanctuary and one story and conversation I have with Australians for the last 21 years, including those don't want refugees and knows that and thinks they need to be turned away and locked up is that the moment I make it about them and their families and their values, I've yet to meet an Australian that would want anything less about welcome and protection and dignity if it was their family seeking refuge. We just happen to be so privileged and blessed this country that most of us have no, uh, connection to that story or we're forgotten that unless we're indigenous to this country, that we're all descendants of boat people.

Scarlet Bennett: Hmm, it's a powerful point, isn't it?

 Kon, in your memoir, 'The Power of Hope,' you speak quite a bit about your parents, their values, their work ethic, their utter and complete dedication to creating opportunities for you and your sister, the opportunities they hadn't had. You also mentioned their legacy of their losses and disappointments, and a quote that I've taken from your book was, "No one loves me more deeply than my mother, and no one ever will. But the disappointment and grief she was burdened with also became my grief to help carry forward," which as a son you do. "

How would you describe then, this legacy that you carry, the honour, the burden that grows out of these complex relationships?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, that's a great question.. Everything good about me and that I've achieved came from my late father and my mum. One of the things when I was writing my memoir was about reflecting back on my childhood, my upbringing, uh, and it was really confronting to, to name something I'd never understood, I never given a name to, which is intergenerational trauma. And that is what is, what is a universal story of the immigrant or refugee story outside of the incredible contribution sacrifices that allow me and my sister to thrive today, but is incredible grief and loss of what has been given up

And there's very little oxygen for it there. And I'll tell you why. Cause migrants and refugees are constantly being told about how grateful they should be to be here, um, and how much they need to assimilate. And that, refugees are told that they've chosen to risk their lives to get to safety. And in reality, for both the refugee and the migrant for very different reasons, one for safety and one for a better life.

But neither is actually chosen to be a refugee or immigrant. If their country had the safety or opportunity, they would still be there, because people are leaving behind so much of their culture and community. And I think that grief, the grief of sacrifice of having to work in factories and farms as so many migrants and refugees have done over the last century, especially post World War 2.

Where does all those dreams go and all those sacrifices go? Where does all what you could have been? I look at our generation, my generation, and the generations after me and I, I'll be honest and say that I couldn't see generations from mine onwards making the same sort of sacrifices that my parents generation, and the generations before them did.

Not on that scale to literally dedicate your life, to a thankless career that often humiliates you where you're degraded and constantly, you know, physically harmed and broken, but you do it so that your kids don't, um, have to go through that. I don't see that happening these days from my generation onwards. I think that there's cost that's paid there and, and that weighs heavily.

And so I think what that looks like for me is about making sure that those sacrifices were in vain. And that, I make sure they count. Uh, ultimately my dad and my mum just wanted me to be happy, but, but, but I realise I have an obligation to do much more with a sacrifice than just worry about myself.

Scarlet Bennett: You mentioned in 'The Power of Hope,', a powerful encounter with Taxi Driver that gave you hope when you needed it most. I wonder if you could share that with our listeners?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: I was finishing a shift at, um, our, our evening legal service, a bit after midnight. And I was walking, trying to shout down a cab with my, my sister in, um, very much in the midnight hour. And we just had a really exhausting and difficult day and kind of questioning, what's the point? Cause this feels like a David and Goliath battle, most days we up against the government that's trying to hurt refugees and we get picked up by a cab driver and he starts chatting to me and he goes, “You remember me?”

Um, and then he introduced himself and, and shared with me the story. This is just by random chance of how many years earlier, uh, when he had arrived here, that, um, my organisation had helped him get asylum, had helped furnish his home, um, had helped him establish himself here and that that had saved his life and changed his life and that of his family.

And when the cab came to a halt and I tried to pay, he just said, look, the least I could do is to please, uh, to show my gratitude by at least giving you, uh, a lift home. And I really needed to, to to see that like, you don't do this work cause you're wanting gratitude or thanks, but so often you feel like you actually making a difference. And I felt very blessed, uh, somehow at that moment, when I just needed a reminder that it does matter, like living a principled life, living a life of purpose, doing what you can to make the world better. It does make a difference no matter how powerless or inconsequential it can feel at times.

Scarlet Bennett: That's really wonderful. And, and I'm sure there are so many other people out there who would feel the same if they encountered you again. It's that kind of ripple effect!

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, I'll share one more story. I was, um, a couple of years ago, uh, a university decided to give me an honorary doctorate and I was able to take one person. So I took my mom and I was there, um, my mom was so proud, you know, seeing me have the life that she never got to have. And I had a young woman come up to me, she's all dressed in a beautiful graduation gown, and she's asking me if she can be introduced to my mother.

She wants to give her a hug, and she, and this young woman's there with her sister and her parents and she goes up to my mum and she hugs her and she told my mum the story of how about 15 years earlier, when she was around six or seven, she turned up to the ASRC with her sister and her parents, and it was our charity that helped them gain asylum and that she was now graduating from university today. And she just, uh, wanted to say thank you, and we took this beautiful photo.

Her parents beaming with pride. My mum, beaming with pride and our two families kinda coming together to share this moment. Yeah, that's everything. You know, those moments are, are everything. Cause most of the day, you, you're spent, you know, as I said, fighting this cruel system, uh, with these incredible, resilient, resourceful, courageous people, which is what refugees are.

But you often see people at their worst, that is, you know, being locked up, being left in limbo for a decade. So when you can see people thrive and succeed when given the chance, it really is such a precious moment!

Scarlet Bennett: That's just so wonderful, isn't it?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Mm.

Scarlet Bennett: In 2010, you were awarded a fellowship with the Winston Churchill Trust. What motivated you to apply for the fellowship?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, uh, when you work for a non-government funded charity, your chance to, you know, explore the world and to learn from others is non-existent because you can't, can't ever justify spending that sort, that sort of money. So, what was really great about applying for this was I had a dream around, I wanted to make sure that everything I was doing was the best that it could be for people seeking asylum or refugees.

I wanted to know that every service, everywhere I work in, that it could hold its own anywhere in the because I firmly believe that the community I serve deserve the best, and so what inspired me was to go, "God, I would love to go and investigate what is world's best practice and go and visit organisations around the world that I've long admired and been keen to learn from." And what this, uh, scholarship allowed me to do was something that was forever beyond my means, which was to travel and, and visit, um, countries, all through North America and Europe, visit 44 different refugee organisations in the space of 8 weeks.

Take back a decade of learning and insights that I gained in eight weeks. And it allowed me to fast track everything I do as a CEO and a leader in the refugee space. It gave me great new ways of delivering better services, better education, better campaigns for change, better ways to structure the organisation that I lead. It was really transformative and life-changing.

Scarlet Bennett: Are there any particular key learnings that you could speak to, Kon?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: There really were, and the biggest one, was the importance of the refugees you serve, being very much at the heart of everything you do. One of the things that really inspired me when I was, in particular, New York, um, there's a large undocumented migrant movement, they're talking broadly about migrant and refugees who very much leave the activism and campaigns risking their immediate detention and deportation, but they're front and center, the faces and the voices. And I think often here in Australia, we've had such a hostile government that we've often been fearful of the risk of people being deported and detained if they are the human face of a lot of this activism, but it really challenged me to go, um, this can be done.

And instead of deciding on behalf of refugees, how about actually asking refugees what they would like? And it really changed my entire mindset and approach where I was no doubt, good intentioned, but being paternalistic there. And it really challenged me to go, actually, they're the experts. It's their lives and they know best and I need to be listening to them first, and it really changed the way I can become a better ally and was able to work in a far more respectful and equitable with the very community that I serve, and I found that life-changing.

Scarlet Bennett: What would you describe then, as your greatest success and greatest disappointment during your years as a human rights advocate?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: My greatest success over the last 21 years of leading 'The Asylum Seeker Resource Center' is probably three things.

One, thousands of people are alive today, cause we, we exist. Thousands of people who, if not for our advocacy and support, would've been sent back to countries where they would've been tortured and killed. That's a horrifying fact, but a truth.

Two, that we've been a place of refuge and welcome now to more than 30,000 people seeking asylum, a place of welcome and safety.

And three, that we have helped with many others led by refugees to change the hearts and minds of, we believe now majority of this country to a point now where want compassionate and humane refugee policy and I think the last election from the uplifting and change of government in the support of Independents and Greens demonstrates that. My greatest disappointment is still needing to be here 21 years later. I feel like I failed-- to 21 years later to still need to be an organization that is here providing emergency food and housing and medical care and legal assistance.

My dream when I started the ASRC at 28 was that my greatest success would be putting us out of business, would be closing our doors. I feel closer to that with the change of government, but it still feels way too far away for me., and I wish I had been able to be more effective as a leader in winning enough hearts and minds, both in, in the halls of parliament and in the broader community that we no longer had an appetite and a stomach for this cruelty, and that that change was in our blood and in our bones. Kind of like what we've marriage equality.

Yeah. That's where I'd like us to be, where it becomes unthinkable to treat people in such a illegal and unjust inhumane way ever again. And that's my, my what I'm determined to get to as a leader and keep fighting until we're there.

Scarlet Bennett: Hmm. So given the state of play, you know, what do you see as your next frontier? What are you working towards?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Yeah, there's one of the things we did, you know, going back and going to the learnings of the fellowship, is really about being led by refugees themselves so, uh, my organisation spent the last year asking refugees what should we be focusing on and how are we gonna do this together in partnership? And so our key priorities are as follows:

Many Australians don't know that there are 30,000 people that sought asylum 10 years ago that are still in limbo. two thirds that we accept as refugees, but put them on an endless path of temporary visas for the last decade-- getting them permanent protection.

Number two, the universal right to work, healthcare and income safety net for all people seeking asylum.

Number three, depoliticising this issue so that it never becomes a political football again, where refugees are demonised, detained, and, and treated in such inhumane way.

Number four, we we're the only country in the industrialised democratic world that has a policy of indefinitely and arbitrarily locking-up refugees, periods that are up to 20 times longer than you will find on average in the UK, Canada, or the US. So we wanna see an end into that. We wanna see an into the 200 plus poor souls that have been held in Papua New Guinea Naru for almost a decade now, needlessly, um, causing irreparable harm to many.

Ultimately, what I'm working on is about being able to transform and change this nation to one that once again, like we once did, took its fair share of refugees, was proud to do so, saw it as a humanitarian, bipartisan issue. And saw the person, a country where every Australian understands that we have simply won the lottery of time and place, and it could quite easily be us in a midnight hour knocking on the door asking for safety. Now, I firmly believe everything can change in a generation.

What I'm hoping is the generation that is coming up is one that doesn't repeat the moral failures of the past and welcomes and protects refugees. That's what we're working on. That's what I'm working on.

Scarlet Bennett: That's a really impressive agenda and um, you know, sitting here I'm thinking, how can I help? And I bet will wonder the same thing.

How can people be a part of this? How can they help?

Kon Karapanagiotidis: You know they always say there's three ways, which is participate, advocate and donate.

Participate:

COVID has hit us hard, like every other charity, we've lost hundred of our wonderful volunteers, many were older Australians and were in vulnerable health groups and understandably COVID has been really tough on us all. And, uh, we are in desperate need for hundreds of more volunteers.

The community we work with had got none of the COVID supports that every other Australian-- there was no Job Keeper, there was no Job Seeker for anyone seeking asylum. So 1: volunteer, you can volunteer anywhere in the country, um, virtually, um, you know, onsite in, in Melbourne. Um, there's lots of different ways after hours-- volunteer.

Second one, advocate.

There, we always have campaigns where you can lend a voice.

One of the movement is about permanent protection for, uh, people that have been found to be refugees, such people from Afghanistan. And on our website, you find campaigns to sign-up and get involved in.

And third, if you can, donate. Whether it's your time, whether it's food, or if you're in a position to do so, um, money. But the most important thing is just to be a bystander, give what you can, do what you can, but we need to come out this pandemic kinder and more compassionate, not cruel and more indifferent. I reckon we're at a crossroads right now where COVID has, has had such a toll on so many of us.

But I wonder how our country will come out of it because Australia's got a taste for kind of what it's like to be a refugee every day, year on end, to be restricted in your freedom of movement, to be fearful for your safety, to be in limbo. To not be able to see loved ones, to not have control over uncertainty.

That's the daily refugee story, and it's the story I wish for on no one. But I'm curious and patient and hopeful that we come out of this with bigger hearts and more open minds. But I think the coming year will be really telling around, do we come out of this as a kinder and better nation? Or do we come out of this as a selfish one? Time will tell, but we all have a role to play in shaping the country that we want.

And I hope it's one that is kind, with a big heart and optimistic and curious about how to be more welcoming instead of one that is more focused on, I'm gonna worry about myself and my own backyard. We've had a, we've had a decade of that politically and look where it's got us. So I think we're ready for a change.

I think most Australians are hungry for different way.

Kon Karapanagiotidis, many thanks for your time today, it’s been an absolute pleasure. And if you’re listening, the name of Kon’s organisation is 'The Asylum Seeker Resource Centre’ and all support in advocacy, participate.. What was it, Kon? Participate. It was participate, advocate, donate.

Scarlet Bennett: Donate. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

My pleasure.

Kon Karapanagiotidis: Thanks for having me, Scarlet.

Yellow Edge: Thank you for listening to the Wayfinder Podcast for more information on Yellow Edge and our services, including professional development, coaching, strategic support, mediation and venue hire. Visit yellowedge.com.au for more information on the Winston Churchill Trust, visit churchilltrust.com.au.