Traditionally within Marxist thought, there are two major classes, the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, or workers and capitalists. Within these two classes, however, there are many strata — and in this episode we take a deep dive into one particular stratum. The professional managerial class, or the PMC, is comprised of highly educated, often centrist or liberal leaning individuals who tend to uphold the systems and institutions of capitalist society while at the same time viewing itself as the virtuous vanguard of progress. And although this class falls within the working class, its allegiances and sympathies lie with capitalists. And indeed, in most ways, it does benefit from capitalism. To discuss the professional managerial class and its position within capitalism further, we've brought on someone who's written an entire book about it. Catherine Liu is a professor of Film & Media Studies at UC Irvine and author of Virtue Hoarders: The Case Against the Professional Managerial Class. In this conversation we discuss who the PMC is comprised of, how this class emerged, and why it poses a unique threat to socialist and communist aspirations. This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.