How do mainstream politicians and pundits contribute to the normalisation of far-right ideas, even as they claim to reject racism and populism? That's one of many vital questions asked by Aaron Winter and Aurelien Mondon in their book Reactionary Democracy. Following ACFM's recent Trip about Fascism, Keir and Jem speak to Aaron and Aurelien about the making of the "woke conspiracy", how illiberal politics absorbs liberal rhetoric, and why the left has to stop falling for reactionary narratives – and give up "debating" the far-right. Produced by Matt Huxley.