Can you ever really know what’s going on inside the mind of another creature?

In some cases, like other humans, or dogs and cats, we might be able to guess with a bit of confidence. But what about octopuses? Or insects? What about AI systems — will they ever be able to feel anything? And if they do feel anything, what are our ethical obligations toward them?

In today’s episode, Vox staff writer Oshan Jarow brings those questions to philosopher of science Jonathan Birch.

Birch is the principal investigator on the Foundations of Animal Sentience Project at the London School of Economics, and author of the recently released book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Birch also convinced the UK government to consider lobsters, octopuses, and crabs sentient and therefore deserving of legal protection.

This unique perspective earned Jonathan a place on Vox’s Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last month — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better.

In this conversation, Oshan and Jonathan explore everything we know— and don't know — about sentience, and how to make ethical decisions about creatures who may possess it.

Guest host: Oshan Jarow

Guest: Jonathan Birch, Author of The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Available for free on the Oxford Academic platform.

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