Malcolm and Simone have a thoughtful discussion about the meaning of utopia, examining why abundance, luxury, and leisure often fail to bring lasting happiness. They reflect on wealthy people they know who seem unhappy despite having everything, and posit that utopia may actually lie in having the opportunity to meaningfully impact the future and matter.

Malcolm suggests that living during a pivotal point in history provides that chance to matter. Simone notes people likely imagine utopia as simply spending time with loved ones, but Malcolm argues experiencing abundance reveals its emptiness. They discuss the ennui displayed in The Great Gatsby, and debate how to convey this truth to their kids.

Ultimately they conclude utopia isn't defined by material comforts, but by the chance to pursue intrinsic values and make a difference. Even those with privilege can achieve this if they use their position wisely.

Malcolm: [00:00:00] But here's really when people go into fantasy worlds. Right. This, this, I find really interesting. The most persistent fantasy world concept, you know, like in D or D or something like that is you was a group of people who are diverse, meaningfully diverse, often actually different.

Malcolm: And who do you actually get along with are working to change something that ends up impacting the future of that entire universe, that that fantasy that you get was in the most commonly created fantasy world actually falls into this model that we have of what true happiness comes

Simone: from. But most people would never intentionally sign up for that, like not for the world because it's a lot of work and it's scary and they might have to.

Simone: Sleep outside, a fox might chew on their head.

Would you like to know more?

Simone: Malcolm Collins. Hello.

Malcolm: Hello, Simone [00:01:00] Collins. I love you to death. And today we are going to talk about what I think is an interesting topic that I was musing on. So I was , watching one of these shows, right? Where they have the You know, the island made of gold or the city of gold, right? And it really got me thinking about okay, so you go to an island where there's a city of gold or gems or something like that, you know, the classic trope is you get to this place and obviously the signs that we now associate with status and luxury don't actually bring you any happiness.

Malcolm: They're not actually of utility was in this island because they are. So abundant. And then it got me thinking about utopias throughout history and what would a utopia be within our modern context. So historically one of the most common types of utopia. And I think that this is the one that's really talked about in the Bible is a land where whenever you plant crops, They always grow like this is the Garden of Eden, right?

Malcolm: So it's, it's a land where you can always have food, like food isn't scarce. But you still have to [00:02:00] put in some level of work for that food. You know, they had the, the, at least as much foresight to understand a land where just food appears as soon as you want it. That would be a, a, a nightmare, even, even to these, these early people.

Malcolm: They were quickly able to to understand that concept, but today, if you just had a land that produce food, whenever you put stuff in it, or food, you could work for, I guess, on a treadmill and then food exists I think most people would find that to be a dreadfully boring and uninteresting and disengaging place.

Malcolm: So then this started to frame for me, okay, what is a utopia these days? What does a utopia look like these days? So I want to hear your thoughts first.

Simone: First, I think utopias are more defined by an absence of things that people don't want. I think about the song Big Rock Candy Mountain, which a lot of people were introduced to by Oh Brother Where Art Thou?

Simone: And like the lyrics

Malcolm: No, no, no. [00:03:00] Way more people were introduced to it by

Simone: Flapjack. I don't know what Flapjack is. What is

Malcolm: Flapjack? Flapjack is a cartoon. . So the team that worked on Flapjack then went on to create like tons of shows that we now know.

Malcolm: It's, hold on, I

Simone: am actually freaking out about that. It's fine, Malcolm. It's fine. I don't get out much or even go online much. Okay. Okay. The

Malcolm: regular show adventure time at gravity falls, bravest warriors, Steven universe, Craig's Creek. Okay.

Malcolm: KO summer camp Island Hilda amphibia owl house.

Simone: Okay, I haven't heard about most of these, so I'm not feeling bad anymore. It was a very important show in the history of television. I'm not a child, I don't watch

Malcolm: cartoons. I do, because they're great.

Simone: Yes, they are, and I love that you watch cartoons, and our children love you for that too.

Simone: Anyway, this is originally a folk song. That was more about the life of someone who rides the rails, like a bum, essentially a vagabond. So it's, it's like all the, the, the [00:04:00] things that are in this utopia, the big rock candy mountain, is like food availability, and, and Law enforcement is very feckless.

Simone: All the cops have wooden legs, the jails are made of tin they're really easy to get out of, and you know, there's booze in lakes, and stuff grows on trees, and chickens lay soft boiled eggs, that kind of thing. So, food abundance, but you know, so I think that a lot of people, if they were to describe their utopia, they'd be like, well, there isn't bosses, or anything they hate, you know, there's no cancer and so, Well,

Malcolm: no, and I think that this is actually really important when we think about, so this question isn't an idle question because what this shows is that when people state what they're striving for in life, it's typically to not deal with the things that are bothering them most in the moment.

Malcolm: However, if they actually achieved an absence of those things, they would not be happy with what they achieved. So they can say, oh, it's. It's, it's, it's bosses that are terrible or [00:05:00] it's you know, law enforcement is terrible or it's not having food whenever I want it. That's terrible. And they get all these things.

Malcolm: So this is one thing that you and I have consistently seen because we hang out with a lot of very wealthy people, very unhappy, very wealthy people. And I'd actually argue that from the, the, the wealthy communities we know, very frequently. And I think that this is something that's not caught in happiness or well being surveys that show them as being you know, more happy on average because of all these things, you know, I want to do the money.

Malcolm: Yes. But they also have a deep ennui to them where it's very clear that they thought they would it. Sort of reached the end of, of some sort of quest they were on once they achieved a certain amount of, of wealth. But it doesn't buy them the answers that they sought. And of the wealthy people we know, the individuals who still seem to be the the most happy and mentally alive are the ones who are still sort of questing.

Malcolm: , and that they're questing for something other than just more wealth, because there's a certain type of wealthy individual. And these are often the [00:06:00] saddest ones where they achieve some level of wealth. It doesn't get them this finality or happiness that they thought they would get.

Malcolm: And so then they immediately go back out there and try to achieve more wealth because they think, well, maybe it's just, I don't have enough, you know, maybe 10 million isn't enough. Maybe a billion isn't enough. Maybe I need infinitely more than this. And it never comes to them.

Simone: Yeah, so there's, there's that.

Simone: And so what you're saying is that things that people expect will make them happy will not make them happy, but what I'm also saying is that people don't even really know what's gonna make them happy along your lines. They, they really only know what they don't want. Oh, I don't like

Malcolm: this, I don't like that.

Malcolm: Well, things that you don't have enough of in the moment, so like You know, when I was younger, I would have thought lots of sex. If I got to the point where I could just get anyone I want you to sleep with me, that I would be happier. I would be gratified with that. But when I did achieve that point in life, you know, I mentioned in a video that we can't post now that I got to a point where it was Patrick, one of my friends who was at Stanford business school, I had this.

Malcolm: Gamers, they point to anyone in this bar and I'll, [00:07:00] I'll get their number and, and get them to follow up with me. And I was able to do that really consistently. At that point. I'd just gotten so good at, at that particular game in life and all of those, that time I spent learning how to get people to have sex with me.

Malcolm: Now it's just completely useless. Now that, now that I'm married with a useless

Simone: skill, not true, it's, it's now sales skills and fearless

Malcolm: situations. It's sales skills and stuff, but then it gets so gross once you realize it's not a challenge. That sex begins to feel really disgusting when it is not a challenge for you anymore.

Malcolm: And I think so many things in life are like that. As soon as they are not a challenge, they become, and I wonder if the same is true for social. So we know a lot of or a lot of wealthy people after they make their wealth seem to redirect a lot of their money is to try to get social gratification or to try to get social approval from a group that they respect.

Malcolm: Is that what utopia looks like? A group where you're constantly getting social approval from people you respect or constantly earning it? But if it's easy to earn, does [00:08:00] it still have value? I want to hear more.

Simone: Oh, I mean, what are the, the happiest, I mean, okay. So for the happiness researchers out there, like they sort of show that there are these overall traits that seem to be associated with happiness.

Simone: Like having kids gives you a bump. Being in a good marriage gives you a bump. Of course, being in a bad marriage is way worse than being in no marriage at all. You know, being healthy helps. But I, yeah, I, I really feel like. Whenever people get what they want, yeah, they're gonna, they're going to find that there's something that they're dissatisfied with.

Simone: I wonder if religiosity would be, would be a good sign of it. But I don't know. I also think about Dante's Inferno. I don't think you actually read the books, but I'm very,

Malcolm: I've listened to Jew. Like 48 hours of lectures.

Simone: Okay. So hell is really interesting. Right. And then purgatory is meh, kind of, kind of interesting.

Simone: And then you get to heaven and it's so boring. Heaven

Malcolm: is about how far away you are from [00:09:00] God. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the way that many Christian faiths have taken on the concept of heaven, that it is no longer about like happiness as we understand it on earth, but it's about closeness to the defined. Many individuals define the divine as like a form of good or a form of positive emotional state, which is undefinable.

Malcolm: And then they don't need to like actually ask this question, because they're just like, Oh, it's that emotional state, the emotional state that I can't describe. Because when you can't describe it, you can't criticize it. You can't you know, begin to pick apart why. If you've just had that in infinite excess all the time, it would begin to not feel as great as it does because they see it as something that axiomatically cannot be over delivered.

Malcolm: So I suppose that's an easy way to answer the question, but it doesn't really work from our perspective. Okay. What

Simone: about a totally secular Maslow's hierarchy of needs? So like at the top of the pyramid, you would suppose that's where [00:10:00] utopia would focus, which is. Self actualization, but what does that mean?

Simone: What is self actualization? Well, so it's

Malcolm: an interesting thing. I, I, like when I look at our lives, we are so beyond self actualization that I would see that as almost like a starting point for our world philosophy. It's just

Simone: so easy. Self actualization is the bottom of our pyramid. I, I, you know, let's, let's just point out.

Simone: We say that from a lot of, you know, privilege. Like we, Don't deal with food insecurity. We are not in a war torn area. Yeah, we're, we're lucky to be in this position where we're sexually secure married couple. So we don't apparently like people that much. We don't care that much about social approval.

Simone: I don't know. I wouldn't say that it's like our life.

Malcolm: I guess I would say and this is something that you always say is that the true happiness, when you're saying like, what is actual true happiness? Yes. But it only the meaningful kind only comes from efficaciously pursuing values that you really believe.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Malcolm: But the, the interesting thing is [00:11:00] with that being your source of true, durable happiness, you actually already live in a utopia because. It's a world where you are capable of pursuing the things that you think have value in a meaningful context in any sort of island based scenario, any sort of scenario that separated you from your ability to in a challenging context.

Malcolm: Impact the future of human civilization would in a way be a nightmare, almost a brain in a bat nightmare, anything that cuts you off. Yeah. So potential for long term durable impact that matters is your utopia, which is interesting because you're sort of already. living in that utopia by living in a challenging world at an inflection point.

Simone: Yeah, 100%. But I think a lot of utopia is defined by hedonic comfort and not happiness. Do you [00:12:00] think that's accurate?

Malcolm: Well, I mean, I think that's how it is historically, but I don't think that that's the way we would view it going forwards. I mean, I think, you know, if you talk to anyone with a sophisticated worldview, they understand how quickly hedonic happiness was in because hedonic happiness, people are like.

Malcolm: Yeah, just general hedonic happiness. But when you hedonic happiness comes within different, what's the word I'm looking here, sort of verticals. It comes in different verticals and whenever you maxed out one of those verticals, whether it's sex or food or, you know, even a writer's high, you know, it's, it's going to become a rote after a while and you can test out different verticals.

Malcolm: And Maybe find one that your biology doesn't have protections against maxing out. I mean, our biologies are basically coded to have protection. They are meant to max out many of these verticals because they don't want you to pointlessly spend your life doing something that has begun to lose efficaciousness.

Malcolm: So, yeah, I, I think that it's, but I think that [00:13:00] most people have like maybe one vertical, their body hasn't coded out so that they continue to gain gratification from it. But what's interesting is I don't think the body ever loses gratification from meaningfully and incrementally achieving. Goals that move your sort of intrinsic value system forwards.

Malcolm: And that can be your religious system, or that can be the things that you think matter in the world, which was really the point of our first book. The pragmatist guide to life is helping people determine for themselves what those value systems were, because they think that when somebody tells you externally, these are the things that have value, these are the things that don't have value.

Malcolm: It's very hard to take that seriously.

Simone: Something else on this subject that I think is interesting is how. One person's utopia is another person's dystopia. Like when I read brave new world for a college class, I got super excited to go into class and talk about it because I was like, this world, like everyone is designed to be [00:14:00] perfectly optimized for and happy with the work that they have.

Simone: And everyone's really good at the work they do when they die, when they're young and no one has a. And everyone has cool helicopters and scented showers. This is the coolest thing ever. And I go into class and everyone's Oh, this dystopia. Oh, scary. How horrible. How, how inhumane. And I'm like, Whoa, like we're what?

Simone: And I just I think that this is also is more universal with utopias than you might think. Because for example, you know, that many people would like to have an Islamic caliphate or like a, a Catholic system that rules over the entire world. And for many people, that is the utopia, right?

Simone: You're not going to get utopia until everyone is part of this religion or everyone lives this particular way. You could argue progressives probably wouldn't think utopia exists until everyone on earth sort of lives the progressive lifestyle and halts progressive beliefs, but then for many other people, that'd be a huge dystopia.

Malcolm: This is really interesting. So the predominant cultural group in our society, this is something we talk a [00:15:00] lot about in our video on villains. My husband is a villain, I think, is, is, is what we call the episode. It's very interesting. That almost axiomatically, it's going to punish and frame as negative anything that presents a worldview that is entirely different from, from its worldview, right?

Malcolm: And so it, within movies and everything like that, it's always going to show a better world as being a world that was structured very similar to our world, just with Less of the things that people don't want in their daily life. Like maybe everything's a bit cheaper. Maybe everyone has a government income.

Malcolm: Maybe you know, everyone's a bit happier, but it certainly won't allow you to completely restructure society into like casts that are genetically engineered, like you would have in Brave New World. When I do think that it, that world actually does fulfill most of what the average person would say, the perfect society would do, you know, less unhappiness so that people would have more purpose in their life that you [00:16:00] would have.

Simone: There's purpose. There's, there's leisure. You, it has everything. The hell, like they don't call them helicopters, even great slaying. Things aren't cool. They're pneumatic.

Malcolm: But if it's a different world, and it might also be that this is a world where you can't as easily impact the future of society anymore as an if

Simone: you're an alpha, you can.

Simone: And if you're a beta or a delta, you don't care.

Malcolm: But here's really when people go into fantasy worlds. Right. This, this, I find really interesting. The most persistent fantasy world concept, you know, like in D or D or something like that is you was a group of people who are diverse, meaningfully diverse, often actually different.

Malcolm: And who do you actually get along with are working to change something that ends up impacting the future of that entire universe, that that fantasy that you get was in the most commonly [00:17:00] created fantasy world actually falls into this model that we have of what true happiness comes

Simone: from. But most people would never intentionally sign up for that, like not for the world because it's a lot of work and it's scary and they might have to.

Simone: Sleep outside, a fox might chew on their head. I

Malcolm: mean, God, you know. Well, so without real risk, I suppose, is, is part of this. Yet, I think if many people felt like, if by taking risk, they at least knew that they could potentially change the direction of civilization. They would still take that risk. They just don't believe it's possible.

Simone: So to matter, you think utopia is a world in which you could matter. Yes,

Malcolm: yes, that's exactly it. , but you today, you A live in the collapse of one of the dominant social systems that have existed for a very long time, probably the most widespread on earth.

Simone: Yeah, but we actually get to matter

Malcolm: now. Great Western empire. You [00:18:00] actually could matter. You actually could be one of the people that transitions. This Rome from a democracy to an empire or whatever phase comes next for us, or maybe no phase comes for us. But it is kind of cool to live during this particular inflection point in human history.

Malcolm: And through that, every single person who's listening to this in a way. Was born into a utopia.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. If one is privileged enough to listen to this podcast, probably, yeah. Has, has the agency and intelligence and ability to be one of those people that matters.

Malcolm: I was, I was also thinking recently, cause I was asking like, what do you want?

Malcolm: So I'm like, what, what am I not giving you in your life right now that I could give you more of?

Simone: Business class flights everywhere, baby. That's all I'm saying. We can't afford it. I know. It's business class flights everywhere. That's class fights, business class flights. Oh, business

Malcolm: class. My

Simone: [00:19:00] poor bony ass cannot handle coach.

Simone: It's too expensive. This is my

Malcolm: struggle. It's just, every time we're doing it, I like lay out this much money could go to charity or this much money could go to you. And I'm

Simone: always I know. And then we booked. I think like the lowest of coach basic economy.

Malcolm: I am sorry. I torture you even though we could easily afford business.

Malcolm: That's but okay. So, so here's what I want to know with, with, with you, you know, I'm always like, what is it more jewels? Is it more business class flights? But Simone,

Simone: I'm asking you. I like, I literally have I don't want any more jewelry. I don't want. I, I, we're like, we, we literally have everything we want.

Simone: Even the chickens, even the chickens, aside from more kids, we want more kids. That's, that's like huge. I guess that's the

Malcolm: one luxury we don't have is enough kids. Yeah. And I

Simone: think you want more reach, right? You're, you're, you're utopia is

Malcolm: you actually, [00:20:00] I could, I could trade things. If I could pay for things, it would be more reach.

Malcolm: It would be more. I, our message reaching more people because, but that goes to this traditional view of the view of happiness that I was saying, which is that you're actually potentially impacting the future of civilization. I mean, we're trying to build tools that do that through our school system and stuff like that.

Malcolm: And in that way, I am living in a utopia where my work actually matters, but the degree to which it matters, you know, can always increase going forward. I think about our daily life. What could we have that would be better? You know, What could I have in a relationship that would be better? It would be nice

Simone: if our chickens actually laid eggs.

Simone: I'm going to punch them so hard. I think

Malcolm: they're just too young, Simone.

Simone: I, you know, they, they, they have developed combs. When I put my hand on their backs, they sit down like they're ready to be mounted. They're ready to go and they're holding out.

Malcolm: You want me to go give them a slap?

Simone: I, I'm going to throw the rooster in with [00:21:00] them and see what happens, but I think they're going to beat them up.

Simone: Anyway yeah, no, no, we, we really have everything. I do think that you're right. That mattering matters, but also, I don't know. If we were to talk with a lot of people. If we were to ask a random neighbor or like a random person on the street, I don't think that's what they would say. I think they would say my utopia is they would, what I, if I model the average person, and I'm sure most of our listeners would agree.

Simone: My utopia is just spending time with my family and having fun. And that might be like, you could substitute friends for family, like spending time with people I love and just having fun, you know, like floating down a river and drinking beer, like playing tennis, playing video games all day, like that's what.

Simone: Well,

Malcolm: I think that's something that they can't really spam when you're around very wealthy people a lot, which we are, they do spam those things and trust me, they do not gain happiness from them anymore. I mean, they keep doing them because what

Simone: do you have to first do that? Do you have, is there some kind of like purgatory version?

Simone: [00:22:00] of our heaven where like before you get to heaven and you actually try to make an impact on the world do you have to experience the emptiness of abundance and leisure

Malcolm: i think yeah if i was going to convey one thing to my kids more than anything else it would be the the absolute emptiness of abundance and leisure

Simone: but i don't think you can just tell someone that i think they have to experience it

Malcolm: Well, I'm gonna be honest.

Malcolm: I think this is the way Great Gatsby is, is one of the great novels. It's, it's not a particularly good. I think people miss

Simone: the point. Like when the Great Gatsby movie came out, like the best parts of it were idolizing fancy life. It, you know, it was, nothing came through. Something

Malcolm: that's persistent throughout the novel is how little happiness.

Malcolm: He gets from all of this and all of the people who

Simone: are just comes across as mopey. It doesn't seem obvious to me

Malcolm: as a specific goal for himself and his progress towards that goal, getting Daisy Buchanan is the only source of happiness. He wasn't

Simone: Daisy, his cousin now, but [00:23:00] you also know, as a reader, you're just assuming this is a family with a huge genetic

Malcolm: predisposition to deep depression that once he achieves that, he also won't be happy with it.

Simone: Genetically mopey.

Malcolm: They're all genetically mopey. I don't think it's that they're genetically mopey. I have seen a lot of people who don't seem genetically mopey, and once they become rich, they begin to exhibit that form of ennui. Especially if they indulge in it in the way that people like he indulge in it, where they have tons and tons of parties, where they eat tons and tons and tons.

Malcolm: But I think this is

Simone: like the, the, you have to go through. You know, remember in your book on sexuality, you found that sort of the only way that actually one could pray the gay way is by subjecting a gay person to just tons of gay sex, just like all the orgies, all the orgies. And then finally they'd be like, oh I'm done.

Simone: I think that it's very similar. With abundance that like until you just shove abundance in someone's face for a while and they they for themselves experience it No one is gonna take your word [00:24:00] for it. No one is gonna say. Oh, yeah. I bet you're right, you know I mean sure there are certainly people who are like I live my humble my humble simple life because I know that it's empty But if they really had a chance to jump at like significant wealth and privilege, you know, they would jump at it like in a hot second.

Simone: It's a sour grapes thing. I don't know. I

Malcolm: just, our kids, how do we convey to our kids? I mean, do you think they just won't believe it? We can try. We

Simone: send them to like rich camp. I don't know. We, we, we somehow get them to experience some heavy period of luxury. And then let them let just let that soak in.

Simone: I don't know how

Malcolm: we're going to make that happen. I mean, is that what holidays are about? that what

Simone: holidays are about? I mean, cause yeah, keep in mind, like for, for thousands of years, I mean, a huge thing with holidays has been heavy feasting. And I mean, obviously there, there are reasons for it. Like you, you have to go through food that's going to spoil

Malcolm: soon.

Malcolm: You have to The problem is, is it doesn't work in just one day. You need to have access to [00:25:00] everything you could ever want.

Simone: Often holidays lasted for a week, you know, like a festival week. I mean, you know, these things, yeah, I think it was enough like to, to really just kill you. You

Malcolm: know? It could be a coming of age ritual we do as our kids.

Simone: Yeah. Where they just live like that would make it

Malcolm: financially possible, I suppose.

Simone: Yeah. Like this can't be something that lasts, but I kind of, I like that idea, but yeah, I

Malcolm: hope if you could have anything you wanted to the maximum degree, but it can't be persistent things that they continue to own after this period.

Malcolm: So they can, we can, we can rent a luxury car for them. We can, you know, et cetera. And it's even

Simone: more possible now than ever. There are all these couture brands that will let you like have a monthly subscription where you can get a certain number of outfits. Yeah, we could kind of lean into this.

Simone: There's just a, did

Malcolm: it actually feel good? Yeah.

Simone: Yeah. We just can't do like private flights for some reason. Aviation is just extremely unaffordable.

Malcolm: No, no, that is the thing that I can't get over. You're like business class is the one thing I care about. No, we really care. It's like 8, 000 extra for a [00:26:00] two hour, three hour thing.

Malcolm: Like... No, aviation

Simone: is just is crap now. I just want to never travel again. Let's just never get on a plane again. We'll take a boat. We do run a travel company. Can we take boats? Let's take boats.

Malcolm: You have a no boats clause in our marriage, where I'm gonna Yeah, no, I

Simone: get a cruise I want a floating dystopia, I don't want a frickin I want

Malcolm: a floating dystopia, that's what a cruise is to you, I love it and it's true.

Malcolm: It is true. Actually, cruises are a form of this infinite luxury, I would say. We'll just take them on a

Simone: cruise. Yes. That'll be perfect. Yeah. And then they'll, they'll,

Malcolm: well, people have different genetic predilections because I think some people, they go on cruises and they keep wanting to go back and, and, and,

Simone: and they just, they go hashtag cruise life.

Simone: We met a lot of people like that. That was a peculiar experience. They, they ate the lotuses or the land of the lotus eaters and they lost.

Malcolm: But I, as I said, the weirdest thing for me when we went on a cruise is when I used to go on a kid, it was always a great experiment to sleep with a lot of people because it was an environment where I was around a lot of new people.

Malcolm: I had an [00:27:00] excuse to talk to new people. So I basically got an entirely new slate of. Girls every time I go and going this time you know, my instinct every time. Okay. Well, I've got to go to this event and this man, I was like, I guess I don't want that anymore. So why am I here? I could eat whatever I guess.

Malcolm: Well, what am I doing here? If I'm not just here to play this little status game that I thought had value and I realized didn't have value. So yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. I mean, we can look at today, the world. Wealthiest person, Elon Musk, like what does he do, right? Like he goes out and tries to solve the world's problems over and over and over again, what he thinks the world's problems are while also accumulating public attention towards himself through things like Twitter.

Malcolm: I think that he is working towards efficaciousness within both of the pathways that we identified as being durable sources of happiness when you can have anything you want.

Simone: Well, and he used to live a [00:28:00] very luxurious life and he had multiple insane mansions and crazy, crazy parties. And then he went from that to like sleeping on the couches of friends homes and living in, you know, gross track tones, sleeping under his desk at the office.

Simone: Clearly... You know, well, because

Malcolm: luxury is not everything provides durable, sensitive happiness, even within our internal narratives. And I also find that I'm less effective when I'm in these total luxury environments. Oh, it's just

Simone: gross. Yeah. You feel yourself.

Malcolm: Cause you know, we'd go spend time with like family members and stuff like that, where we'd have to like, hang out in mansions and stuff.

Malcolm: And it, we never got anything done. You begin to feel gross. It's a bit like. The feeling that you get, have you ever had a food that was like too fatty or too sugary, and then afterwards you just sort of feel ick afterwards, I don't know if you guys can relate to what I'm talking about here, or too oily, like a pizza that just had too much oil on it, and [00:29:00] then for a while afterwards you're just like, ugh, imagine if every social interaction began to feel that way, all of life began to just drip With this, and it slows you down and your ability to effectively work.

Malcolm: And I think that's why Musk intentionally removes himself from those environments when he's working.

Simone: Yeah, it just feels terribly gross, terribly gross. Yeah.

Malcolm: I enjoyed this conversation. At least in terms of my aesthetic daily life, you have created a paradise for me. You know, I have a birthday coming up and she's well, what do you want?

Malcolm: And I'm like, literally nothing.

Simone: No, man. I nailed it. I nailed it. This time.

Malcolm: Oh, I'm really excited to see. The last time I wish I could show a picture of this I, I got from her and this was so amazing.

Malcolm: It was she commissioned two portraits of me playing with our kids. And then she got a bunch of lens cleaners made with these portraits on them.

Malcolm: And it was so cute because it was really personal to me. It was me doing something with my kids, which I care about, [00:30:00] and I'm always losing my lens cleaners and I always did so it, it. It just, on every level, it showed both care to the things I aspire for, the things that are important to me daily, and the little, the smallest of inconveniences that eat at me every day.

Malcolm: And you were able to see those and try to help me with those. And I really appreciate

Simone: it. Yeah, FYI folks, you can get custom lens cleaners on Etsy. Or Artcorgi. Well, art Corgis Yeah. Is, we literally started a commission website called art corgi.com, which is where I get commissions from Malcolm. But no.

Simone: Okay. It's not a commission this year, but I still think you're gonna like it. And I know

Malcolm: I'm gonna like it. You, you give incredible gifts. You, you do. And, and you listeners, you can guess what the gift is gonna be. And I'll let you know when I get it. Am I allowed to let them know?

Simone: Yeah, totally. Okay,

Simone: I love you. I'm looking forward to our next conversation already. Love you.

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