MMT-informed ecological economist Professor Phil Lawn says "Growth is killing the planet". What exactly is growing? Can we have good growth and bad growth? And dare we raise the issue of population growth? Phil tells us about the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI), which brings with it some good news, and we reflect on why no-one is talking about it. (Although after we recorded our conversation, the Labor government did announce it intends to "Measure What Matters".) Creditseating the scenery B.wav by cetsoundcrewhttps://freesound.org/people/cetsoundcrew/sounds/397723/This work is licensed under the Attribution 4.0 License.The following sound effects are permitted for non-commercial use under license “Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International (CC BY-NC 4.0)”https://orangefreesounds.com/magic-logo/https://orangefreesounds.com/magic-transition/https://orangefreesounds.com/tension-ambience/https://orangefreesounds.com/rising-swoosh-into-explosion-sound-effect/https://orangefreesounds.com/distant-explosion-sound-effect/https://freesound.org/people/janbezouska/sounds/387415/https://freesound.org/people/Timbre/sounds/223528/https://freesound.org/people/barrypirro/sounds/530575/    https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Where_the_Moon_Came_From/Psychedelic Saturdayby Where the Moon Came FromAttribution-NonCommercial 3.0 United States (CC BY-NC 3.0 US)https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Andrew_Howes/Condoby Andrew HowesAttribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0)Theme music:One in Ten by UB40St. Germain by Alice Ivy