Tristan Harris, the co-founder of the Center for Humane Technology, talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about the latest problem he and his peers are trying to solve: "Human downgrading."

In this episode: Harris’ background as a design ethicist Google; how his previous movement, Time Well Spent, was co-opted by the tech industry; how are Apple and Google's "digital well-being" features doing?; the utopian promise of tech; why Harris shifted to focus on “downgrading”; what the Center for Humane Technology does; has Harris gotten through to tech's leaders?; why Facebook and YouTube are worse than Shell and Exxon; digital platforms as cities; what we need to do now; techlash; the (sort of) good news; are CEOs just hoping this goes away on its own?; and why removing Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act is "critical."

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