Malcolm and Simone have an insightful discussion about the paradoxes in progressive culture's view of diversity. They analyze how progressivism claims to value diversity yet enforces ideological conformity, and how "minority status" is defined in strange ways. Malcolm argues progressivism commits cultural genocide, while Simone provides nuance on progressives' motivations. Their dialogue highlights the clashing worldviews underlying today's culture wars.

Malcolm: , [00:00:00] you've got to understand how literally insane it sounds to be a cultural group that says diversity is a thing of value and everyone's actually the same.

Malcolm: What they mean by diversity, and this is very important, is that we are open to recruiting people into our cultural group from any other cultural group. They don't really value diversity. What they value is diversity in

Simone: victims. Well, I don't know. See, yeah, I was, I was going to say I think the difference here is, is the, the role that intersectionality plays in progressive culture, but so I think that that's what we're missing is cultural outsiders intersectionality.

Simone: It, it is, it is victimhood status And that's one, that's one view. And you know, I, progressive culture is not a monolith it is a monolith.

Malcolm: I'm sorry, in what way is it not a monolith? Explain. Well,

Simone: because I do think that there are many people who identify as progressives who don't agree with [00:01:00] every element of it.

Malcolm: Yeah, but you're just on the outside. This is what your cultural group actually believes at the highest levels, and this is what your cultural group will try to enforce on the surrounding cultural groups, regardless of whether or not it's something that you...

Malcolm: personally identify with and I think that that's, that's really, this is like you go to a Nazi and he's like, well, I'm not antisemitic.

Simone: Malcolm, you're not being Fair.

Malcolm: why are you

Simone: so unwilling? I, I, anyway. Why am I

Malcolm: so unwilling to morally compromise? If you're okay with a cultural group that's out there that's using our school system to systematically erase everyone who thinks differently than them , and if it was literally any group other than yours doing that, you'd be like, Oh, this is like the most evil thing anyone can do.

Malcolm: I, I'd really, you know, encourage some self reflection.

Simone: Your arguments and your wording are not going to engage people.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm: The progressive party, like it talks about diversity a lot. [00:02:00] Like it says diversity is important. And yet in, in two ways, it seems to have a systemic hatred.

Malcolm: In denial of diversity. So, way number one is it says different groups are not actually different. Different cultural groups are different. Different ethnic groups aren't different. Different, nobody's different. Everyone's actually exactly the same.

Simone: Oh, like there's not even, you know, men and women are exactly the same.

Simone: Yeah, men and women are

Malcolm: exactly the same. Not different at all. But, but it's also super important that you respect people when they decide that they're a different gender. Why would any of this matter if we're all exactly the same? This is so interesting and it's such an incongruous part of this sort of progressive world perspective, which is,

Malcolm: I don't know, it's very difficult for me to like really grok, because it's [00:03:00] so astronomically simple.

Simone: Stupid. Well, I think that it's interesting because progressivism in general, as it exists today is full of paradoxes and it's not just about diversity. It's also about freedom. Like I grew up thinking, you know, and I, and living in a very progressive culture that progressivism was all about freedom, freedom to choose what partner you wanted, freedom to choose.

Simone: how you dressed, what you said, how you acted, who you could become, you know, you can be anyone you want, any gender you want, anything, anything, whatever, you know, you are free to choose. And what I find to be really interesting is the extent to which it's actually quite the opposite there. Like it's actually pretty coercive and that no, actually you can't.

Simone: You can't do things that offend these groups, you can't, actually I was just listening to a podcast covering an element of the furry community and the furry community was talking about how it's super, super not okay to watch, I think what they referred to as, as feral erotic material, we're [00:04:00] gonna say.

Simone: You know, like I guess video footage or illustrations of animals banging each other. Because that's, you know, coercive, which, which is weird because if you're a furry, you might be like more likely to be turned on by something like that.

But

Malcolm: just interesting. Okay. So I, I will word this cause I think that our viewers may not understand what you just said.

Malcolm: And it's really interesting. It immediately makes sense to me. What they're saying is that in the furry community. These are people who like to dress up as animals and hit on other people, dress up like animals. They say it's not a sexual

Simone: thing. And there's a subset, of course, that also is species dim dysmorphic, meaning that they actually feel like they're really a fox or they really Or like a dog, right?

Simone: Yes, yes. So there's, that's a subset, a small subset, but yeah, anyway. It is considered

Malcolm: immoral to watch videos of the animal that you identify with. Having sex with that same animal, but the reason it's considered immoral, this is what's fascinating. The reason it's considered immoral is because there [00:05:00] wasn't consent.

Malcolm: There wasn't consent when those two animals decided to have sex with each other. It's not because you're watching an animal have sex, that's not what they find disgusting. It's because there wasn't consent when the animals decided to have sex. That's fascinating.

Simone: Continue. I guess, yeah, I guess that's the issue at hand.

Simone: But yeah, I just find it so interesting that I would think that the furry community, for example that to me is like a really big bastion of progressivism in general, right? Like a very, very small proportion of the community identifies as right, let alone hard right, right? This is, this is supposed to be a very, you know, Yeah.

Simone: I was like in, in, in a blocked and reported podcast, I was just listening about that. They, they talked about a survey in that, in that space. And so it's also it's one of those things where you have to be really comfortable with being, you know, seen as weird. To dress up in an anthropomorphized costume and dance around and do all that stuff.

Simone: Right. So it's just so interesting to me that in a community like that, where you would think that it is like the epitome of being accepting of accepting differences of accepting [00:06:00] deviance from what is normative and most people just. I think that's pretty weird. And in fact, I was listening to another podcast called Ruthless, which is more like a conservative political podcast.

Simone: And they were basically just saying if it's a furry arrest them immediately. Charge them, book them. So, this is clearly something that's not accepted. And yet, and yet, this community is still shaming people. For being aroused by things that, frankly, they, it's not a reflection of their morals.

Simone: It's not a reflection of, and there are people, there are TikToks that were shared in this podcast of people basically saying you know, you either need to get help or you need to be like eliminated, like basically die. And that's, you know, people in this kind of community can say that. I think that's just, it really exemplifies the many paradoxes.

Malcolm: So we should also talk about why conservatives think it's so disgusting to have sex with animals, because this is a really interesting thing to me. The reason why conservatives, so when we're talking about conservatives, what are conservatives as we define them? They're people who want their cultural group to survive intergenerationally and into the future, and most of them come from some form of traditional [00:07:00] cultural group, most of the traditional cultural groups that have been successful are the ones that sort of outbred their, their nearby rivals.

Malcolm: And one of the ways that they've done this. is by shaming sex with animals. This was not an animal welfare thing. You know, if you're talking to somebody 2000 years ago and they're like, don't do the person who has sex with a sheep is disgusting.

Simone: They're also slaughtering the sheep. So, you know, it's not like the worst thing you're going to do.

Malcolm: Yeah, no, they didn't evolve this cultural belief because they cared about the sheep. They evolved this cultural belief because people had sex with sheep. You know, put less time into their partners, finding a partner. They got more diseases. They introduced more diseases to the community. It was, it was completely about fertility and health.

Malcolm: And in a way that is why it was in today's culture. If you are trying to determine what should we see as like a cultural group, what should we see as, as disgusting? As having sex with a sheep, what we should see is that, you know, [00:08:00] we apply the same evolutionary pressures, is people who treat pets like they're kids. If somebody says this is my child's dog, you know, what they are saying is I am using this dog to masturbate my instinct to have kids And through that lowering my fertility rate and and I guess what i'm saying is in the future you know assuming genetic technology didn't exist which sort of changes all the rules of the game But if genetic technology didn't exist within 500 years We would see claiming that a dog or a cat is your child in any context is, is literally as disgusting and as socially isolatable as having sex with a dog

Simone: or a cat.

Simone: But let's go back to diversity. So it does blow my mind because like I, I did, you know, it, it's so interesting that, that beneath and you've, you've said this many times, right? Like when you look at. Progressive groups of all the different colors of the rainbow, you [00:09:00] know, Jewish progressive groups and Christian and Muslim and all the other progressive groups, they basically all hold the same general values.

Simone: Everyone goes to heaven. Everything's going to be okay. You know, whatever you like, all these sort of things there, there just isn't a lot of difference. And then when you look at conservative cultures, there is a lot of diversity. And like, how could that possibly be when supposedly diversity. is a value of progressive.

Simone: I think that the secret here is that it never was, that progressivism never was

Malcolm: about diversity. What they mean by diversity, and this is very important, is that we are open to recruiting people into our cultural group from any other cultural group.

Simone: Oh, so that's interesting, and that's So that's really a sign of, if we're using terminology from the pragmatist guide to crafting religion, it is a, a dominating culture.

Simone: Right. So it's goal is that, you know, the world isn't okay until everyone is saved. We have to save and we have to convert everyone. So until, you know, basically the world is a caliphate of our religion.

Malcolm: Yeah, yeah, we don't care if you're gay, or straight, or black, or white[00:10:00] or, or Jewish, or, or Muslim, you can join us.

Malcolm: And think

Simone: just like us. Being super straight is not. Okay, in all progressive circles, but sure we don't care where you're

Malcolm: starting. Interesting idea there, right? So super straight is something that was like a fad online, I think for a bit, which was basically saying, I am only attracted to people who were born the gender that I'm attracted to.

Malcolm: I, I am not attracted to trans people. And yeah, I, I think again, They don't really mean that you can have any sexuality you want to have when, when, when they're telling you what they mean is that you need to see sexuality in the way they see sexuality, which they see is consistent with maximum choice around sexuality.

Simone: More importantly, what you're saying is, is it doesn't. They want everyone to convert. It doesn't matter who you are or where you're starting from, but you do need to convert and you do need to hold our values. So it may not matter if you start off as super straight, as long as [00:11:00] you end up like part of the Yeah,

Malcolm: as long as you eventually, .

Malcolm: It doesn't matter where you started, as long as you end up Submissive to their cultural

Simone: group. But I think, yeah, that's, I think that really helps to explain it to me because I did feel confused as to like why progressive culture could be so homogenous and really essentially anti diversity because they're anti any culture that doesn't hold their values, right?

Simone: They feel like they need to be reformed. They need to be saved. But you're right. It's, it's more just that everyone needs to join, which kind of implies, well, I guess, yeah, now that I compare it to all the other dominating cultures that also believe everyone should be converted. Right. It's, it's no different.

Simone: They also think that those people like in, let's say, you know, a, a dominating culture that thinks that homosexuality is bad. Right. So then, you know, it's, it's, you can, of course, gay people should join and they should also turn straight. It's that simple. Or we'll throw you off a building, but whatever.

Simone: Right. And so, yeah. And actually that I look at it that way. Or they should transform into women,

Malcolm: depending on what gender you're talking about. [00:12:00] Some Muslim groups, they would accept gay people as well, but they would say, but you need to undergo forced gender conversion.

Malcolm: But I guess the point here that we're making Is this is something that, that progressives really seem to misunderstand about conservative groups is they have many ways of dealing with gender, sexuality, stuff like that, right?

Malcolm: If you're a same sex attracted people within one conservative cultural group, they may say, well, you should sublimate that. Within another cultural group, they may say, Oh, we'll put you in a priesthood, like a celibate priesthood class. I was just talking about Catholics right there, but then the Muslim cultural group, they'll say, Oh, well, you should undergo gender conversion, there's lots of ways that people, it's not that these groups deny that same sex attracted people exist, there's just different cultural solutions to it.

We bring up this point so frequently. For two core reasons. One. Is that? We actually agree like our cultural group, that one, that Simona and I live within actually agrees that the progressive solution. To [00:13:00] same-sex attracted people to let them marry and date people of the same gender. Is the solution that we practice that are, we would practice for our kids. But just because we believe that doesn't mean that we have the right. To try to erase the perspective of other cultures. And when you as a progressive or someone like me, Goes into these other cultures. And I say, well, your solutions are less efficient. It ends up hurting people. You know, how is that any different than going out and telling a, you know, a Jewish person you can't. , Circumcise your kids. You know that th that, that, that hurts the kids. And that therefore, that is child abuse and you shouldn't be allowed to do that. And, you know, we will use the government to prevent you from doing this. , which is actually something that some progressive groups are doing right now. , It's very easy to justify. If you can say, oh, this group is hurting. Its its citizens. Right by taking this cultural perspective. Then, therefore we [00:14:00] have the right to stamp that out. The problem is, is that if any of these other cultural groups was in power right now, you know, whether it's today would be considered a conservative Christian group or conservative Jewish group or conservative in any group. Right. They would say that you were hurting people through like the trans surgeries or through even gay marriages that they would say that, that like morally hurts people. Right? So you can't just say I get to stamp this out because it hurts people. Right because anyone can use that justification. The evil people have always used that justification.

The ethical way to allow situations like this, to resolve that doesn't allow your own cultural bias to justify genocide against another cultural group or genocide of a particular cultural practice. Is to say. .

We will create an environment in which kids who grew up within that cultural group can leave that cultural group or choose not to carry on those practices. If they don't like them or don't think they're efficacious. So let's go back to the Jewish example, even a [00:15:00] kid who was circumcised. Ends up believing that circumcision was bad and hurt them. Then they won't do that to their own kids, or they might even decide that they have so much animosity towards the cultural group that allowed that to happen to them, the Jewish, cultural group that they just leave that cultural group. However, it's important to note here that even if the plurality of people from a cultural group end up saying, okay, I'm not going to end up practicing circumcision anymore because that hurt me. If it turns out that that has perfect overlap with the portion of the group that is unable to motivate reproduction within themselves, it's unable to say, okay, I'm going to go out there and have kids. Um, and, and raise them within this new cultural context I'm creating. Well, I think you've shown that thing that we think. Was, you know, evil or bad in some way, must've had some utility because it was what enabled the intergenerational transfer of in a cultural system.

And in some way was tied to whatever led some [00:16:00] people of that cultural group. To make the enormous investment, which is child-rearing at above reproductive rate. Uh, you know, raising four or five kids is an enormous financial and emotional burden. And it may turn out that, that. Somehow these practices, which some people in the cultural group felt hurt them were actually really key in motivating that. So there, there is a way of dealing with this outside of going out in, in stamping out cultural groups. It's just to create an environment in which kids are free to leave those cultural groups. And the second point that we're really trying to make here. Is there is this perspective that there is a progressive view on same-sex attracted people. And then there's this homogenous conservative view, which isn't true. Progressive. They're just one of like a bunch of different ways that cultural groups. Relate to same-sex attracted individuals. And.

We believe those individuals should be protected, whatever cultural solution they choose for themselves. You know, once they're no longer relying on their [00:17:00] parents for financial support. However.

Right now. If we look at the way things are being taught within like our education system or was in popular media, it's very clear that it is taught. This is the right way to be a same-sex attracted individual. And in all of these other panoply of different cultural. Ways of relating to same sex attracted individuals that conservative people have is the evil way of relating to this and the wrong way of relating to this.

And it is for this reason. And primarily for this reason. That we are justified in wiping out these cultural groups. That's why we keep coming back to sexuality because it's the core thing that progressive to use to justify, , their superiority to other cultural groups, because they believe that it's just such a superior solution. The one that they have. And that it justifies them utilizing things like the educational system. To attempt to wipe out these other cultural groups because these groups are evil, but it's important to remember. That nobody in the history. Of any form of cultural [00:18:00] genocide has ever said. Oh, we're trying to wipe out like a weak group or a group that's in any way equal to us. They always see them as evil. They always see the cultural group that they're wiping out as somehow a threat to them. And somehow actually controlling all of society. As somehow. This, this big boogeyman. Uh, that's the way cultural genocides work. And again, we actually our cultural group then that Simone and I are part of actually agree with the progressive way of relating to same-sex attracted individuals.

But we also recognize that our culture is just one hypothesis about the way that human should live. And we don't judge the righteousness of another culture by how close to us they are in their beliefs, but by whether or not they believe that those beliefs give them the justification to erase other cultural groups.

Malcolm: And to Simone's point, what we're saying there is that when you look at a progressive Jew, or a progressive Muslim, or a progressive Catholic, or a progressive Calvinist, right?

Malcolm: [00:19:00] Not that those exist really, but if you look at them they hypothetically existed you know, they have broadly the same views on gender, on sexuality, on the way we should relate to the environment, on what a human's future should be, on what a moral versus immoral action is on when life starts, on They have everything.

Malcolm: They have, they have basically the same views on everything. They are one culture wearing the aesthetic shell of other cultures. Where when you're looking at conservative iterations of all those traditions, they have a really, really, really different views on those things.

Simone: And Well, but I think, here's the, here's the interesting thing, though, is that the, the common factor really is the dominating element of it.

Simone: And the only thing that really makes progressivism feel But not act very different from a very conservative dominating religious culture is that it's people wear different costumes within it. Right? Like they're, they're

Malcolm: saying yeah, yeah, [00:20:00] yeah. But I think that this is again why. The cultural group, because to a non progressive, you if you are somebody who's in that cultural group and you're watching something that makes sense to you, you've got to understand how literally insane it sounds to be a cultural group that says diversity is a thing of value and everyone's actually the same.

Malcolm: There are no differences between groups of people in any way.

Malcolm: There's no ethnic differences between cultures of people. There's no cultural differences. It is, it is sinful to say that for example, isn't it odd that Jews win Nobel prizes at a rate like A 10, 000% higher when contrasted with their population isn't it, you know, the Catholics get Supreme Court positions at a really higher rate, isn't it?

Malcolm: You're not allowed to even voice these things because to them, equality means that nobody's different, [00:21:00] but, but then Why is diversity a thing of value?

Malcolm: If we are not different, if people are not different, then diversity is just an aesthetic choice. It's like the colors you're using on a palette or something. And. The answer, again, should be obvious given where the conversation has gone before. It's because they don't really value diversity. What they value is diversity in

Simone: victims.

Simone: Well, I don't know. See, yeah, I was, I was going to say I think the difference here is, is the, the role that intersectionality plays in progressive culture, where in progressive culture dominance hierarchies. Like the, the extent to which you can play the intersectionality Olympics can determine your status within the community, but it seems reasonable.

Malcolm: Yeah. Yeah. Well, but interestingly, it determines your status within the community, not based on any special abilities it grants you, [00:22:00] right? So if you look at our worldview, you know, we see different cultures as having. Different specialties or things they might be better at than other cultural groups?

Simone: Well, that, that's a value judgment, Malcolm. I think that, that for many people that the degree of their,

Malcolm: it's not a value, it's an objective

Simone: fact. No, well, no, no. It's objective

Malcolm: fact that some cultural groups outcompete other cultural groups.

Simone: That's, yeah, but that's, that's not a, that's not a value in progressive culture because what, what they're looking at is, is systemic bias that someone has endured EL elevates their.

Simone: Their social status in a way that may be like in Catholicism, the extent of your martyrdom, like the amount, the amount that you suffered for God will elevate your status because they're

Malcolm: not looking for efficacy. They,

Simone: right. But that's, that's, and that's fine. Like some cultures don't care about efficacy the way that we do.

Simone: So I'm just saying like you're making,

Malcolm: but the point being is where you're saying that there are differences in the way progressives relate to different cultures, they relate to different cultures in a way. Where they value cultures that can [00:23:00] argue to have endured more suffering or be more you know, systemically unstable in any way like endure ongoing suffering, I guess you could say.

Malcolm: more than cultural groups that don't. And they, they achieve a position within their status hierarchy. And this is because it's a status hierarchy that is based around the idea that every human's goal should be to remove all pain from the world.

Simone: Yeah. And once to those who have experienced more pain, either personally or systemically.

Simone: Historically you know, deserve to to be in a position of elevation to have accelerated pain removal.

Malcolm: Yeah, they, they, they get higher in the line for the pain removal surgery.

Simone: But so I think that that's what we're missing is cultural outsiders intersectionality.

Simone: It, it is, it is victimhood status which, which often correlates very highly with minority community status historically or presently. Okay. And, [00:24:00] and with the way that you and I view diversity is But

Malcolm: hold on, I would say that's not true. Okay, go on. Okay. So, there's, there's two answers to the word minority in the populations that small society.

Malcolm: But that's not the way progressives often use it. When they say minority, they mean black people. There's many groups that are much more discriminated against in much smaller portions of the population in the U. S. than black people that progressives policy wise, seem to not really give a s**t about.

Malcolm: And I think that that's important to know, that when they say minority, and this is actually when we're talking about fertility rates. We see this all the time, right? So I talk to progressives about fertility rates. And they go, is it affecting minority populations? And I'm like, yes, look at the U.

Malcolm: S. Right? Native American populations have one of the lowest fertility rates of any group. And they're like, sorry, but people in Africa are still having lots of kids. And I'm like, I don't see what that f*****g has to do with Native Americans. [00:25:00] And they're like, no, minorities are fine. I'm like, oh, when you say minority.

Malcolm: You mean only black people, you don't care about anything that's affecting any, I

Simone: don't, I don't know, I'm, I'm going to push back a little bit. I don't know to what extent that's true. I think that that people in progressive circles very much care about Native American populations. I just think that they.

Simone: have less cultural capital and, and less of a currently elevated narrative and therefore suffering as a result and people, you know, like what's right in front of them. And it's just, but no, I, I disagree. I

Malcolm: think, I disagree with you there. I think that they would tell themselves they care about Native American populations.

Malcolm: I have not seen a major progressive campaign. If you look at the plight of many Native American children in

Simone: the U. S. Because the incentives aren't there. There isn't a large voting base, like to your point, right? Their populations are dwindling. And that is the point,

Malcolm: right? If minority to you means only the [00:26:00] populations that are useful in winning the next election cycle, then you don't actually care about minorities.

Simone: Again, I really question you're saying, remember, like, when we even talk about demographics, right? Like Native American populations are ballooning. Why is that? Because a ton of people. In the name of intersectionality, but also you know, all the benefits.

Malcolm: We should clarify what she means here.

Malcolm: The native American fertility rates are going way, way, way, way down. Right now,

Simone: the more people are identifying as native American because they're like one 25th native American. Because if you say that you've native American heritage, then you can get a bunch of benefits, both like from a cultural intersectionality standpoint, but also in terms of like college admissions, financial aid, et cetera.

Simone: So I'm just saying I don't. Like if, if that were the case, that like Native Americans had no cachet in progressive circles, there wouldn't be ballooning numbers of Native Americans.

Malcolm: Okay. Okay. Then I'll use another group that may make my argument more strong. Okay. Which group [00:27:00] is one of the smallest distinct cultural groups in the United States right now that progressives.

Malcolm: increasingly care less and less about, it's Jews. Jews are a if you're talking minority, they are much more a minority than any of the groups we're talking about right now. They're, they're an incredibly small percent of the population, and they underwent a very... Recent event, which shows that the the world is is

Simone: incredibly intersectionality standpoint.

Simone: They don't matter. Why? Because they historically have been in positions of financial empowerment influence historically even genocided. Yeah, but you know, I think as soon as you have some people in a position of power and a position of wealth, you lose your like victim status. It's considered as deserved.

Simone: So because they have all these like wealth coins, they're genocide coins you know,

Malcolm: and also. Okay. So the, well, no, I actually think it's more than what you're saying. [00:28:00] They, and I've, and I've seen this within progressive circles. I've seen increasing Holocaust denial. There is a belief that it is impossible for a group to boast.

Malcolm: Um, Economically outcompete, if it turns out that all of the differences between groups in the world. So if you believe that everyone's actually exactly the same, if, if Jews and everyone else is exactly the same, like there's no differences between groups, then any economic differences between groups must be ill earned.

Malcolm: They must be earned through mischievous means. And so when they see Jews as a cultural group out earning other cultural groups or out achieving, you know, academic success when contrasted with other groups, it is proof to them that they are not discriminated against because it is impossible in a world in which everyone is equal.

Malcolm: To out compete other groups if you are discriminated against. If the primary differences between cultural groups are [00:29:00] discrimination resultant.

Simone: And that's one, that's one view. And you know, I, progressive culture is not a monolith as much as we say that it's, it's pretty homogenizing. It is a monolith.

Malcolm: I'm sorry, in what way is it not a monolith? Explain. Well,

Simone: because I do think that there are many people who identify as progressives who don't agree with every element of it. I, you know, most people who identify as progressives are a lot more reasonable and wouldn't say that, you know, you should be obligated to sleep with...

Simone: Trans woman, if you're not like really turned on by that, you know, like I think most people are reasonable and many people are progressives and they are. I

Malcolm: would argue that you're, you're being naive here. So, just, you are telling the truth. There are people who identify. So there's, there's people who you know, identify with Mormonism, right?

Malcolm: Who will go out there and claim that Mormons don't believe that everyone eventually inherits a planet, right? And takes over a planet and becomes a god themselves, right? There's actual Mormon apologists who will say that right now. When Joseph Smith said this, when Brigham Young [00:30:00] said this, when the current prophets have said this.

Malcolm: And so it's well, why are they saying this? It's in there well, I was never taught this in church, right? And it's yeah, but you're just on the outside. This is what your cultural group actually believes at the highest levels, and this is what your cultural group will try to enforce on the surrounding cultural groups, regardless of whether or not it's something that you...

Malcolm: personally identify with and I think that that's, that's really, this is like you go to a Nazi and he's like, well, I'm not antisemitic. It's yeah, but you there, the, the, the, the, the camps, yeah, you personally not being an antisemitic Nazi doesn't mean that supporting the Nazi movement doesn't lead to antisemitism being advanced in the world.

Simone: Yeah,

Malcolm: I do agree with you. There were, there were, there were many Nazis that were not anti Semitic. I will agree with that statement [00:31:00] as well. I don't think it means that Nazism broadly was, was not anti Semitic.

Simone: I hear your point. Yeah. Yeah, this conversation has been pretty helpful to me in helping me understand what diversity really means in progressive culture. And just to acknowledge that progressive culture. Is a dominating culture, which is to say that it will not rest. It will not be comfortable with the existence of groups that do not hold its doctrine.

Simone: All, all Appistates have to be converted. And, and no one can really rest until everyone has been saved. And that really like just helps to explain the diversity problem and also that diversity really is intersectionality, which is just part of the status and virtue signaling and hierarchy of this particular culture.

Simone: So this has been actually, I was surprised. This has been pretty good. Oh,

Malcolm: you thought I was going to suck?

Simone: Well, I just, you know, I, I, I've struggled with this a lot, so I wouldn't think that I wouldn't have thought that we could get to the [00:32:00] bottom of it. But I, I feel, personally, at least we, I have a.

Simone: An imperfect, but still functional for me now, model that works a lot better than what I had before, which was,

Malcolm: oh. Well, yeah, when I feel in the same way that, you know, progressives, the way that conservatives frame progressives, the way progressives can frame conservatives can lead to some conservatives to not understanding what conservatism is actually about.

Malcolm: You know, . So often I see, especially young conservatives, think that conservatism is about their cultural group dominating others. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. You're just a progressive. You just are in a cultural group that's not winning right now. The, the, the real conservative movement is, and always has been within the U.

Malcolm: S., about creating an environment that is stable for multiple cultural groups trying to exist intergenerationally with fidelity. Not about erasing the people who think differently than you that the cultural genocide and this is something that really, you know, people are like, why are you so mean to progressives?

Malcolm: And I hear this over and [00:33:00] over again, right? Like, why can't you just be nice? And it's you expect me to be okay with cultural genocide. Like their actual goal is to erase everyone. Who doesn't think like them to take their kids to convince those kids that their parents are evil and bad people. And again, this is what happened with the residential school program in Canada.

Malcolm: Like cultural genocide has happened many times and these genocide deniers. And that's what they are. They are genocide deniers when they're like, Oh, my group isn't doing that. When you are a Nazi and you're like, I like Jews, Nazis definitely aren't erasing the Jews from the world. It's yeah, but they f*****g are.

Malcolm: Okay. And the cultural group that you are supporting. F*****g is. Its core goal is to take the children of the people who disagree with it and ensure that they have the correct views on gender, sexuality, our relationship to the environment, the future of the human species, what's moral and what's immoral.

Malcolm: If that's not cultural genocide I [00:34:00] literally don't know how you're defining the term. It is cultural genocide, and, and, and, and just because you deny it does not mean you're not culpable for it happening in the world. Well,

Simone: cultural genocide is a necessary process of any dominating culture, essentially, because everyone has to be converted to their ways.

Malcolm: Yeah, well, yes, necessary, but it's also evil and it must be stopped.

Simone: It's evil for our values, but if you literally believe that non believers will go to hell, it is your moral

Malcolm: imperative to hell. They're just doing it for s***s and giggles because they think that these other

Simone: groups

 Are intrinsically inferior to them.

Simone: No, they think that, they think that non believers are both experiencing pain and causing pain, and that pain and suffering are terrible and bad things.

Simone: Malcolm, you're not being Fair. Well, no. Okay. Okay.

Malcolm: Okay. So they literally shouldn't exist. I I don't think you're being fair or you're not fully comprehended.

Simone: No, I, I think, no, I think it's very wrong. I think we're, we're very [00:35:00] against coercion. But you can't just straw man your enemies. You know, I, I think you have to understand.

Simone: No, no, no. I

Malcolm: understand why they, they're committing genocide. I understand why they're committing genocide. Right. It's because they think that they're removing pain from the people who are living under these cultural groups. Yes. I think that through saying, well, this is why they're committing genocide, you to some extent are, you know, you're like one of those people who are like, well, the Jews weren't perfect when you're talking about why the Nazis did what they did, right? You know, and that's not

Simone: an excuse. People do very evil things for very stupid reasons. I'm not saying it's, it's not a stupid reason and I'm not saying that they're right to do it. I'm just saying that you can't just make up a, if you make a dumb straw man reason for why people do it, you're not going to be able to fight them or convert people to your views effectively.

Malcolm: Because you just think that there are reasons are more nuanced and justified than I have given them [00:36:00] credit for it.

Simone: I don't think that their reasons are justified. I think that their reasons are In many ways, logically consistent, but easy to tear down when you, when you provide a little bit more nuance and color to suffering and what actually causes suffering.

Simone: And that, that while progressive causes and cultures. are very against suffering, their interventions exacerbate it and make it worse. So, I think it's, it's possible to take the very progressive argument, to take the deepest progressive values and, and use them like an Aikido against progressive culture itself.

Simone: But I don't think that an open ignorance toward progressive values, a refusal to engage with them is going to enable you to use its energy against it.

Malcolm: You're, you're right. And I, I, I, I think that's a very good you know, what's the word here? Steel man? No, it's a good steel man. And I, and I, and I think that you know, I, [00:37:00] I appreciate that.

Malcolm: And I think any of the genocide deniers that watch our program will appreciate. Uh, You're sorry, that's what I think of them as, you know, if you're okay with a cultural group that's out there that's using our school system to systematically erase everyone who thinks differently than them and, and, and, and if it was literally any group other than yours doing that, you'd be like, Oh, this is like the most evil thing anyone can do.

Malcolm: I, I'd really, you know, encourage some self reflection.

Simone: Your arguments and your wording are not going to engage people. I'm sorry, but that's just like a failed move.

Malcolm: Yeah. You can't tell somebody commit you're saying, I can't tell someone who's committing genocide. They're committing genocide.

Simone: The way that minds are changed is you develop a connection with someone, you understand what their values and motivations are.

Simone: You get them to trust you and you come to trust them and care about them. And then you help them to find more nuance in their beliefs and help them to really. Think about what you're saying and what instead you do with your attacts of progressives and with [00:38:00] your attacts of people that you disagree with, which I think is very dangerous, is you essentially immediately say, Hey, I'm your enemy, stab, stab, stab.

Simone: And they put up their walls and they never listened to you again. Okay. That's not going to work. The way that you change minds is very different. It's a Trojan horse approach.

Malcolm: I, I really appreciate your ability to stay calm in the face of such immeasurable evil, to the extent where you can communicate with people who, to me, I have trouble even communicating with.

Simone: . Malcolm, our culture holds that all humans are inherently wretched. I don't know how obviously No, I, I,

Malcolm: I hold that as well, and my ancestors who held that started the, you know, the Free State of Jones, right?

Malcolm: So why are you

Simone: so unwilling? I, I, anyway. Why am I

Malcolm: so unwilling to morally compromise?

Simone: No, I'm not asking you to morally compromise, I'm asking you to be effective. And you're not even willing to try to be effective. You're just like, I'm going to straw man my enemies. I'm just going to make them hate me. I'm not even going to try to engage with them.

Simone: [00:39:00] And I think that that's very sad because we have a culture that believes in efficacy. We have a culture that believes in engaging with offensive ideas. And you're not willing to engage with them. You just want to other them. You just want to make them enemies. And that's okay. Like othering is, is a part of an effective cultural technology as well.

Simone: But if you actually care about addressing issues that

Malcolm: we're really. I think that you suspect that they are a much larger cultural group than they actually are. Yes. I think that they are a, they are a cultural group that everyone is afraid of within elite circles. But I think if you asked the majority of Americans, if they're actually okay with what's happening, 90% of them would say no.

Malcolm: Well, I

Simone: mean, I think if, if you looked at Nazi Germany, if we're going to go back there. The, the majority of people would not be really cool with what's going on. And a lot of it comes down to which minority is in power. How do

Malcolm: you stop it? You don't say in a nice way Nazis are bad and here's our nuanced take.

Malcolm: It's, [00:40:00] do you not see the camps? Do you not see what is happening? That is how, because the truth is. Is that your average person living under a Nazi government, 90% of them, your average person living in America right now, 90% of them, they're not actually okay with what's happening. They just haven't had it told to them in a way where they can understand and contextualize how evil it is.

Malcolm: And that's what we're trying to do. And so I think what you're wrong here is you think my goal. Is to convert the dyed in the wool progressive, whereas my goal is to convince your average American who knows what they're doing is wrong, but doesn't actually have a word for it. It's a forgetting before remembering phenomenon that you have in psychology.

Malcolm: So forgetting before remembering in psychology is this phenomenon where somebody will go oh, it turns out I had like erase this

Great.

Malcolm: from my life, right? Like I had been

Great.

Malcolm: to the kid and [00:41:00] people are like. No, you didn't forget it, you just used other words to describe it. You were like, my uncle touched me in ways that were weird and that felt funny and I I thought it was really silly and uncomfortable at the time.

Malcolm: And then, one day in like your fifties, you were like, GASP That was a

Grape.

Malcolm: oh my God, that's what happened! And I think that for a large part of the American population, right now what we need to do is just wake them up and be like, This is a genocide! That's what's happening right now! Do you think that's bad?

Malcolm: If so

Simone: No, I'm not against galvanizing opponents against genuinely, you know, harmful things that are happening. That's fine, and that's important. But I'm just saying it is also possible. To, to change people's minds and

Malcolm: convert the died in the woods, extremist, progressive side in the woods, you can get through to them.

Simone: Well, I know you have no

Malcolm: confidence and I'm glad there's [00:42:00] two of us. There's one of us that can be the nice one. And one of us can

Simone: be the main one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be bad cop. I'd be good cop. And I love you very much, Malcolm.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe