Podcast: The Copywriter Club Podcast (LS 49 · TOP 0.5% what is this?)Episode: TCC Podcast #415: Copythinking with David DeutschPub date: 2024-10-01Get Podcast Transcript →powered by Listen411 - fast audio-to-text and summarizationMost writers focus on the writing part of copywriting, which only makes sense as we're writers. But maybe we should be doing more copythinking before we start to write. Our guest for the 415th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is A-List Copywriter David Deutsch. And when it comes to thinking about copy, David has few peers. He talked about strategy, writing emotional copy, coming up with big ideas, and much more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: David's website The How to Write Emotional Copy Workshop The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When we started The Copywriter Club Podcast, one of the things we were adamant about was that we would interview copywriters at all levels of experience and at all the various stages of their business journey. So we’ve spoken with copywriters who are just getting started along with those with years of experience. We’ve interviewed copywriters who call themselves content writers, strategists, consultants and various other titles. We’ve heard from marketers and authors and experts in all kinds of fields. In fact we used to start the podcast with the promise that you would listen and walk away with plenty of ideas you could “steal” for your own business. With that background, it’s always a thrill to get the opportunity to interview an expert copywriter who has earned his place on the A-List. One of the go-to copywriters when it comes to being coached by one of the very best in the direct response world. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m speaking with A-list copywriter David Deutsch. David has generated more than a billion dollars in sales over the course of his career. Not bad. And probably someone we can learn from. You’ll hear this in the interview, but one of the things David likes to talk about is the difference between writing and persuasion and copywriting. The two ought to be the same, but often they’re not. I know I say this every episode, but I think you’re going to like this interview. So stick around. Before we jump in with David… It’s October. Which means the year is 3/4 done… we’ve all got one more quarter to reach the goals we set for our businesses at the beginning of the year. So let me ask you, how is it going? Are you ahead or behind your goals? What can you accomplish in the next 12 weeks that will move your business forward and set you up for a successful 2025… hard to believe the decade is half over… any way in my opinion the best place for copywriters to stretch and reach their goals is The Copywriter Underground, the paid membership with more than 100 hours of training, including an entire course on selling, a mini-course on proposals, more than 27 different templates, including a legal agreement, and so many other resources designed to help you grow. And each month, we invite a different guest expert to teach a new skill… this month’s members-only persentation is by Email Marketing Hero Kennedy on creating lead magnets that attract buyers, not freebie seekers to your list. It’s the kind of skill that will help you build your own list and make you so much more valuable to your clients. It’s happening next week in The Copywriter Underground which you can join at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, let's go to our interview with David… David, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. I would love to start with your story. How did you become a direct response copywriter, a copy coach, and I think what some people would even say, you know, original member of the A-list of copywriters that are out there? Tell us how you got there. David Deutsch: Oh, well, thanks. It's great to be here, first of all. And, you know, I started on I don't know how far back to go, but I started my advertising career at Ogilvy and Mather in New York, which was David Ogilvy's agency back when he still occasionally roamed the halls. And I you know, worked in the ad world for a while after that. Um, and it was, it really taught me, first of all, of all the advertising people, David Ogilvie was the most accountable, the most direct response, enthusiastic. So I always had that training in, it's not just creativity, but it's selling right. And it's not creative unless it sells. And, um, When I first encountered Jay Abraham, I was like, wow, there's this whole world out there of direct response. There's this whole world out there of more accountable advertising. I want to be a part of that. So I kind of left the ad world and started working for the boardrooms, the Agoras, Healthy Direction, some of the big publishers, as well as all sorts of entrepreneurs and startups and fun stuff like that. But it was always more or less direct response oriented. It was always about getting a response, getting an order, getting a name.  And after doing that for a few decades, I started teaching, coaching other people how to do it, because I kind of found that it's really pretty easy in a way to turn someone, turn their thinking, right? Most people think incorrectly about writing. They think, well, how can I write? How do I put the words? What are the right words to put on the page? Rather than, hey, you know, if you had to convince someone to go to a certain movie or to go to this restaurant versus that restaurant, you wouldn't sit down and be all writerly and try to compose something. You would just, your natural persuader would come out. So, I find that just getting people in touch with that kind of goes beyond all the formulas and the templates and all, which are great to have. But the main thing is, how do you get in touch with that ability that you naturally have to help people, help to persuade people? So that's what I do now. I still do some writing occasionally, although it's more partnerships, kind of getting together with people and creating a product or working with them as part of their team. and have my own products as well, because nothing keeps you as sharp in terms of writing. Rob Marsh: You're having to sell your own things. David Deutsch: It's like, boy, you really pay attention to the numbers. And that's what copywriting is in a way. It's as much of a science as it is an art. Rob Marsh: I love that. So before we jump into how you do that and the strategy, all that, you're one of the last guys around that really remembers Ogilvy, David Ogilvy. His books, I think, almost set the stage for much of what became the direct response industry, even, you know, before the internet sort of, you know, took over a lot of that, but just tell us, you know, just a minute or two, your thoughts about that whole experience for you and how formative it was for you. David Deutsch: Well, I think being at Ogilvy was kind of like being at a teaching hospital in a way, right? People taught each other and there was a body of learning that you learn from. It was partly a mythology in a certain way, which was interesting, right? The myth of David Ogilvy and what he did and how he was. And of course, he perpetuated that myth by occasionally wearing kilts and doing outrageous things in restaurants and doing outrageous things in presentations. But, you know he loved the English language. You can tell his writing is so masterful in its command, in its exactness, its use of language. And he loved getting results. He loved selling. He didn't just write for sport for its own sake, for winning awards, right? He called direct mail my first love and secret weapon. because he used it once to sell a hotel back in the day. And so, you know, and I think also his putting his teachings in different forms, right, in his lectures, in his books and things has kind of inspired me to share what I know, to be part of that passing on. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love reading his books to this day. Some of the things that maybe he teaches are a little dated, but you know, I'd still say 80% of what he taught, what he talks about is applicable to the work that we do. Certainly what we're doing online, you know, where response is so much of what we have to do. But I'm a little bit jealous that you had that experience of being at Ogilvy in those days. David Deutsch: Yeah, I'm very I'm grateful. Because It's like I fell into it in a certain way. You know, I got a job there. It wasn't even in the writing. And then I got into the writing part of it. But I was just like, Oh, I'm at an agency. That's interesting. You know? Yeah. And, but I kind of fell in love with it. You know, just got kind of swept up. Rob Marsh: I think, yeah, I think that happens to a lot of us. I'm, you know, much the same way. I had an opportunity at the very beginning of my career to start writing and I've loved it ever since. Yeah, it's, it got its hooks in me and I've not wanted to let go. You mentioned when you left the agency, you started working with a lot of these big name direct mailers and it was all offline, I believe at the time. As you list off some of those names, I can imagine a lot of direct response copywriters thinking, wow, that's the A-list of clients. It feels charmed in a way. How did you connect with that first client that then led to the next, whether it's a boardroom or Agora or… Yeah, how did that all come together? David Deutsch: Well, that's an interesting question, interesting story. In the Jay Abraham corpus of work, there was a mention of a guy named John Finn, who was a copywriter's agent in Los Angeles. And I thought, I should copy, I should copy, I should write to this guy. And I wrote to him. He was very receptive. And he hooked me up with different clients. and hooked me up with a guy named Jim Rutz, who was a very well-known writer in the world of direct response and in those big, you know, with those big companies. And I started working with Jim Rutz, which was a great learning experience,The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Rob Marsh, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.