Tanner Weyland:Hello, this is Tanner Weyland. Welcome back to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi, Justin.Justin:Justin.Tanner Weyland:Hey, hey, no, don't do that. Just kidding, I'm joking.Justin:I'm sorry.Tanner Weyland:It's great to have you. Ha ha ha.Justin:Thank you. It's great to be here.Tanner Weyland:Perfect. So if anyone's new to the podcast, we are going to learn a bit about how to bring our DMing and storytelling to the next level. And today's podcast is kind of a thought experiment. Why don't we see more marriage and families happening, you know, with your players characters? Like, why aren't they starting their own little families and having little kids that they name and train and everything else, right? That's kind of the thought experiment, and finding out if, as DMs, we can do this and make it an enriching and enhancing part of an adventure. First off, Justin, what do you think about this topic?Justin:I think it is an amazing topic. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I'm actually expecting my first child as this podcast releases. My wife's due date is August 4th, so it's like two, a week and a half away. So thinking about families is definitely the top of mind. And so I've been thinking of different book ideas that can involve having a baby or just all sorts of. fun ideas and I think and actually on a different side note my own campaign my players have gotten pretty good like they're pretty high level and it's hard for me to throw a balanced challenge at them without killing them and so I was thinking you know what maybe I'll just give them like a baby and they'll just have to deal with that you knowTanner Weyland:Just do a little bit of just giving them responsibility, a coldJustin:Mm-hmm.Tanner Weyland:hard slice of responsibility and see how they deal with it.Justin:Exactly. I mean, the unfortunate part of doing that would be is how they treat NPCs thus far is not generally good. So I'm kind ofTanner Weyland:No.Justin:afraid, you know.Tanner Weyland:Well, that's perfect. I mean, in a way that kind of speaks to one of the opportunities of, uh, of making, you know, player relationships actually lead to kind of emotional attachment that speaks to it, right? Cause it's like, you can tell different stories if the players feel emotionally connected, because I think a lot of really great characters, players will try and do that naturally, you know, they'll try and be like, oh, let's find the emotional connection. that would make my character actually want to go save this town or save this little girl who got kidnapped or something, right? But not all players are like that, right? And so kind of giving them that natural connection of like, hey, it's your wife, it's your fiancee, it's the girl in the town who you've been spending more time with or your child. I think that that's just a very natural way to get player buy-in. if that makes sense.Justin:Yeah, and I think that can also be a reason why Dungeon Masters might avoid the family just because it might not feel earned, you know?Tanner Weyland:Mmm.Justin:Or you're trying to establish some sort of family relationship with a character, or sorry, not a character, with a player that generally doesn't do much role playing. And I mean, if you do that, there's a big chance that they'll be like, oh hey brother, okay bye, right. not a big payoff.Tanner Weyland:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that kind of leads naturally into what I want to talk about next, which is like, why don't we see this more often? You know? Uh, and, and I think it's worth talking about from the player perspective and the DM perspective. Uh, for DMs, I think there's a few reasons, you know, frankly, I think that sometimes the subject matter might be awkward, you know, because in order to create a relationship, you have to have flirting. and or dating and you know and some people are just uh maybe don't want to touch that because that's not something they're super confident with uh personally or they don't want to role play flirting as an npc with a player because that can be a little uncomfortable too right especially if that player or the dm you know because it's dm's gonna be like this too especially if they want to like talk about like some of the nitty gritty with like sex or anything like that then it's like oh you're gonna you know makes quite a few people at the table uh uncomfortable honestly you knowJustin:Absolutely. Honestly, this kind of goes a little bit into... Well, it touches on a topic that is connected to an episode I'm writing currently for later that deals with death, right? And allowingTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:death in your game. And really as a DM, you need to understand and to understand you have to ask your players what they're okay with, right? You know... my personal group and to be honest myself, I tend to shy away from some of the more PG-13 R rated aspects of playing D&D that could be in there, right? Just that's my natural personality, but even if it wasn't, I know that my group, that's generally how they would trend as well, right? We would prefer to stay away from some of the more scandalous types of encounters you could have in D&D. But. if you don't ask your players you won't know right?Tanner Weyland:Yeah, exactly. And I think that I think communication with players is key because kind of jumping over to their perspective, I think that some players don't feel like they've got the metaphorical nod from the DM to be like, hey, you can pursue like some type of more relationship, a deeper relationship with this PC, because you're trying to flesh out your character, you can pursue that and I'm actually going to yes and what you're doing. You know, instead of being like, oh, I'm going to have this NPC not really show that much interest or there's always going to be like an invisible wall of like, hey, what are you wasting your time here with? Let's get back to adventuring. You know? And I think that if you have that kind of. understanding and you also do a little bit of push and pull with them role playing wise, then they'll feel more comfortable actually trying that and that might be a hurdle that they're willing to get over.Justin:Absolutely, and honestly I think that should actually be some sort of a you know an exercise that we as dungeon masters Kind of take upon ourselves because I know for me personally when a Character tries to flirt with another NPC or something like that I might get uncomfortable or I might make it kind of comical and pretty quick, right? but like you just said taking it as a yes-and moment and Using it to spice up the plot, right? And actually one of the other points we were gonna bring up was, you know, when that happens, it could be a form of splitting the party, maybe spending too much time on one person. But you know, using it as an exercise, you might be able to think of ways to kind of incorporate this NPC a little bit more. MaybeTanner Weyland:Yeah.Justin:they decide to flirt with someone else, kind of creating a love triangle in the party, or they're doing it on purpose, trying to split the party, right? And they become kind of a more deviant aspect. uh... or you just find ways to incorporate other people in their own kind of side quests for love i guess you can say or relationships is a better way to say itTanner Weyland:Yeah, totally. You know, and I like that idea of making it a multi character thing because I feel like that's another issue here is that if one person is like, not obsessing, but like really focused on like, hey, I saw this barmaid and I'm gonna you know, every evening, gonna go talk with her. Then that's a time sink, you know, and it's almost like You know, I think DMs already worry about one player kind of hogging the spotlight, you know, and if one player has this kind of side relationship that's solely about them. where they want these long conversations back and forth, then it's gonna get boring for the other players. It's gonna feel like it's not worth it for them and they're gonna get annoyed, you're gonna get annoyed that you're spending that time. And so I think that that's something that DMs and you'd be very cognizant of, right?Justin:Yeah. And I think, you know, we'll, we'll talk about a little bit of kind of some things you should and shouldn't do. And we'll definitely need to talk on this aspect of, uh, you know, if it is going to be a time sync, what are some things you can do to maybe mitigate that? But before we move on to, to some of our other points, oneTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:last reason why I think, you know, we don't often see this and, um, both from a player. perspective and a DM perspective, I think is because, at least in the US, we're conditioned to, you know, they get married and they live happily ever after, end of story, right? Like that's the endTanner Weyland:Yep.Justin:of story, which if you've ever been married or started a relationship, right, marriage is the beginning of like a big adventure, right? AndTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:I think we need to recognize that we have that condition, right, in our brains. and recognize also that it's kind of hampering some of our creativity, because we're naturally prone to thinking you get a family and you settle down, right? But even in this modern day and age, we should get used to the fact that, you know, a lot of people work remote, so you can technically have your family on the road, and why should D&D be any different, right?Tanner Weyland:Absolutely, you know, because I think that some people worry that, oh hey, my type of adventure doesn't fit. And it's true for some of them, right? If you have a campaign or a mini campaign that's a dungeon crawl, it's like, yeah, having, you know, maybe your players could be related to each other, but, well, the player characters, but you're not likely going to have, you know, NPCs in that position. But if it was an expedition or like, or one where you have like a town hub where you're doing adventures from, that's such a perfect opportunity. right especially and we're going to talk about we're going to have an episode soon about you know how to do an expedition campaign, but in a setting like that, it's perfect because it's like, hey, you can have multiple NPCs on that, you know, in the wagon train, on the boat, whatever it is. And that's a great opportunity also for, you know, interacting with the same NPCs over and over again, and them really building a bond there. And I think you shouldn't shy away from that. I know it's easy to just focus on building the bond between, you know, players, characters. that's wonderful. We all want a metaphorical fellowship of the ring, right? Where everyone's like, oh, they're so tight, right? ButJustin:Yeah.Tanner Weyland:it's like, hey, but you can also have other kinds of relationships to just kind of flesh out the relationship meter, if you will, with your player characters. And that's just going to make the story better in general.Justin:Absolutely. You know, I think when we say having a Dungeons and Dragons family, right, a family in your D&D campaign, we all too often, and we've even been talking like this, we all too often think about lover, right, wife, husband, child. But I think it'd be interesting to, you know, throw in some dynamics like uncle, grandma, godfather, you know,Tanner Weyland:Yeah,Justin:some of thoseTanner Weyland:brother, sister,Justin:brother, right,Tanner Weyland:right? Mm-hmm.Justin:cousin, you know, because those... those bring sort of a small distance with them, but they can also bring somewhat of a familiarity, right? And I think that would beTanner Weyland:Yeah.Justin:a very interesting aspect to add to your story.Tanner Weyland:Totally, right? And I think that it's worth talking about, how can you actually implement this well? Because I think it's something that we should all try. It gets us out of our comfort zone, but I think it adds so much more reality to the stakes in the world and also the connection. So first off, what I wouldn't recommend that you do when you're trying to get your players to have these kind of family ties. let's keep in mind that you can have a lot of relationships, like Justin was saying, like in family, but then you can also have friend relationships, right? Like when was the time that the paladin in your party met? another paladin in the city and they went out for drinks and then they also you know went out uh to go you know sword like practice sword fighting together you know things like that can also add depth and an emotional connection that if that you know friend npc got like taken away or hurt suddenly you have like reason you know you have an M.O. to like pursue the bad guy whoJustin:Absolutely and a couple words of warning with this You won't always plan correctly like sometimes your players will just randomly develop Relationships with NPCs you never planned and ones you did plan they won't care but also as the DM You will likely need to be vulnerable yourself, right?Tanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:And what do I mean by that? I mean, when you're out having drinks with the paladin, right? The player is going to role play, or ideally they are, right? It's going to be somewhatTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:hard for them to kind of develop those positive emotions that they don't, but they're going to role play, and so will you. And because of that, you will likely need to sort of immerse yourself in these emotions, right? And it's possible that you will have to kind of be vulnerable as the character, which will make you vulnerable as a person, right? It's kind of hard