Malcolm and Simone have an in-depth discussion about the controversial internet personality Andrew Tate. They analyze his worldview, intelligence, backstory, masculinity, cultural influences, differences from their own perspectives, and more. The hosts find Tate to be smart and logically consistent overall, while disagreeing on certain issues like treatment of women. They explore how he appeals to young men lacking direction, the roots of his philosophies, and debate toxicity vs pragmatism. Ultimately they conclude that different cultural groups can productively co-exist while optimizing differently.

Simone: [00:00:00] I think he doesn't maintain frame. He is the frame and I do feel like he is a method actor who's had a psychotic break and is now. In the fantasy.

He is. And like, you can see it. You can see it when he talks. He is 100 percent genuine and I think he wakes up in the morning and he growls to himself

Would you like to know more?

Simone: I

Malcolm: want to start this episode. So Andrew Tate did a thing on how all of the world problems could be solved if every man had a sword in his house. And so he has this Honestly, it's a smaller sword than mine that he keeps in his house for one of the examples is if if your woman goes out and she learns about something from the news, like, some disease is supposed to be killing people and she's all panicked.

You just point your sword at her and say, don't be scared woman, and then we won't have problems anymore. And so we're beginning our Andrew Tate episode by showing this sword that's been in the, the back. Oh, I got to swing it around like an ultra nerd. Yeah. [00:01:00] Sorry. I can't

Simone: actually. You're going to, you're going to damage some serious

Malcolm: lights.

Inside and I am a dad. Which means that I may have swords in my house, but I'm a nerd because I do it. I'm not mad. In fact, I would argue every man who has swords in their house is just a nerd. Like I don't, I don't know how he thinks that makes him look tough. I, I think it The last question I got on this, somebody saw it and they go, Oh, you must be really into D& D.

And I'm like, well, you know. Ha ha ha ha ha. But I don't think that's my takeaway from him.

I guarantee you don't walk around your house with a sword because you're not a commander. I'm a commander. You know, like when you command the troops into battle.

I guarantee you. I do. Sorry. I looked up the video. The sword video and i found this and i just love he's like you don't walk around your house with a sword. i'm like yeah yeah, yeah. actually i do but um i don't i don't go around doing it feeling like i'm a commander i understand that walking around your house with a sword [00:02:00] and as a grown man is a sign of being a nerd and i accept that about myself

Malcolm: Which actually brings me to a point. Which is interesting and important. That's why we need people like Andrew Tate. So I often go through the comments when I do guest appearances on other podcasts and stuff like that.

And there is one type of comment that we just get, like, really, really regularly in these videos. Especially me when I appear, which is, look, I love the stuff he's saying, but he just looks like such a poindexter, you know, or I can't stand his voice, like he sounds too nerdy, or you know, like, I, I, like, I like it.

Like he's, he's saying important facts that we need to know, but he is like in some way repellent because of how nerdy I appear. And this is actually really interesting because the two places where I've gotten these comments the most, one was when I did an appearance on the Jolly Heretic where, [00:03:00] and then the other was when I did an appearance with Ruby.

He's the guy who does What If Alt Hiss, but he has a separate podcast. Great podcast. And, you know, we should have them on sometime. But both of these guys are like objectively significantly nerdier looking than I am. And yes,

Simone: but you look young and Unabashedly enthusiastic, which is to say, like, you gesticulate, you bring a lot of, like, character and, like, goofiness into your, into your

Malcolm: mannerisms.

I, I think another thing it could be is I am nerdy, but I am also hot. Like, I, I know I'm hot. And it could be that I represent a nerd who is sexually threatening.

Simone: Well, but here's the other thing. I mean. Who is the other, so most people who are hot and funny and passionate and like physically like they gesticulate a lot and make a lot of like Uh, funny facial expressions.

It's, it's the gays. The [00:04:00] gays. So that's also why I think you get a lot of accusations for being gay. Is because you're like, you're attractive. But also you're flamboyant. And like, like expressive. And humorous. And

Malcolm: goofy. And that is not an accusation that I get as to why they can't listen to me. And this is really interesting.

Yeah, it's the nerd thing.

Simone: It's the nerd thing.

Malcolm: of men who genuinely have trouble consuming information from men that they don't see as one within their tribe into physically superior to them. I think this is why you look, you look at like some of the top like intellectual male influencers right now, and you're looking at people like Chris Williamson.

You're looking at people like Joe Rogan. You're looking at people like Andrew Tate. Touche. They, they, they genuinely struggle with a man who is in their eyes, physically weaker to them, being in a dominant position to them. And this is why we need people like Andrew [00:05:00] Tate, because I can communicate this message as much as I want.

But if I communicate it And it's not getting through to people because of whatever this filter is. Well, then I need it to, you know, I need some Chris Williamson's or some Andrew Tate's to watch our podcast and regurgitate what I say in other environments. Well, no, it's just true. And you look at the pictures that the no faces are showing within the conservative movement.

You know, you, you look at the pictures that are chosen by people like

Simone: By anonymous posters, you're saying people who do not

Malcolm: show their faces. . Bronze age pervert. Yeah, Bronze Age pervert, you know? It's like a masculine manly man, right? You know? He's, he's, he's, it's so guys can...

And so we can get through this, but I'd also point out that I'm not the only one who, who has this, one of my favorite things is that Simone was asked after me to appear on the trans maxing podcast and they go, you know, I really think it would help with viewership if you could present feminine and I like, like present as a woman [00:06:00] and I love Simone's you're like, I thought I was always presenting as a woman, like that's like the most underhanded thing like I've ever heard.

And I love it because I love how you know, sort of masculine you've become through this, this relationship. And see, I've got my sword here. So everyone knows I can defend myself. I don't think swords equal defense but no, so. I really want to get to Andrew Tate because I think that, one, he does help distribute important parts of a message that people need to hear, and two, I think that it is very easy to underestimate his intelligence.

If you would look at just the clips that people use to attack him, You can look at him and think this guy is a bit of a dullard, right? But if you look at his holistic content, what you realize is he is baiting them intentionally with those clips. He is actually a fairly high processing human being in terms of like.

I think [00:07:00]

Simone: he's a member of Mensa. I mean, he's a, he's a certified

Malcolm: like, yeah, I was going to say, like, if I just look at his content, I can tell that he's much like, just like biologically smarter than somebody like Eliezer Yukowsky. Like he is actually an intellectual powerhouse. And keep in mind, if you look at our model of intelligence, have you succeeded in multiple different domains that weren't that tied to each other?

I would say, yes, he succeeded as an influencer and he succeeded as a business person and he succeeded as a kickboxer. And he comes from a smart family, like, should it be surprising? Right? Like, but I, I, first I want people to not discount him, but then we need to talk about like where we're different from him, because this also gets interesting.

You know, if we're doing a video on him, we're not going to do a video sucking his dick. Right? Like, but also I want to point out here because this is something a lot of people haven't contextualized about the Andrew Tate story. Andrew Tate made his initial money the same way Ayla made her initial money, which is pretending to suck guy's dicks online.

So if you look in his own words, the way [00:08:00] Andrew Tate, so we had this moment where he had lost all this money. I think he was in debt to some people and he's like, Oh s**t, what am I going to do? And so he got his girlfriend's cause he's like, that's my asset. Right. And I'm going to use them to go online.

And chat up guys, right? And then what he realized is the most efficient way to do this was for him to have the girls act as the face of the conversation and pretend to be typing. But he would be the one actually chatting with the guys because he understood the male brain better from us.

No, I actually think way to hustle, man, like hustlers university. Now this is a hustle,

Just, give me a chance.

Alright, I'll trust you. But only if you... Will perform oral sex on me. What? Right here, right now.

[00:09:00] You can't be serious. Oh, I am serious.

Okay, let's do it. Here we go. And, go.

You are dedicated.

Malcolm: But it means that Andrew Tate got his business start by pretending to suck off guys online and calling them daddy and, you know, you know, stuff that I don't think is congruent with his current image. But if anything, it makes me respect him more because it shows that that when it comes to the hustle, there is nothing.

That he won't sacrifice to get

Simone: it done.

 We're doing this without you! Now hold on, team. Gary has already proven to me that he is 100 percent committed to the team. He proved it last night by sucking my cock.[00:10:00]

Alright. Come on, team, we gotta find that stage!

Simone: I think a big part of his narrative is that he is better than most people. That most men indeed are very pathetic. That they are slaves in this modern world. That they are worse than him. They're uglier than him. They're weaker than him. They're shorter than him.

They're poorer than him. They're dumber than him. And he has very little respect for them. He, you know, he says he's never, you know, he doesn't use supplements. He doesn't eat healthy food. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't have aspirin in his house. Because we did. Right, right. So like, but, but he sells supplements because I think he, you know, to a great extent and, and his, I think many of his consumers kind of like this, that like, he doesn't respect them because they're so pathetic and they want to be awful like him, but they know they have to like earn

Malcolm: it.

No, no, no. He's very open to people that you can become like me. No, no, no. Yes, you can.

Simone: But, but, but until you, until you were trying and until you acknowledge that he is better and smarter and everything else he will happily exploit you and happily, Think that you're pathetic and, and that's, he's not shy about that.

So I don't know if [00:11:00] that's incongruous. I don't, I don't think that him

Malcolm: exploiting it may not, it may not be my weakness. See, but the point I'm making is I wanna be clear that we're going to be positive on him. But if, if, if you look at this video, you know, we are also not filtering because we're talking about Andrew Tate, we are trying to give a whole honest perspective on who he is.

And, and there's some stuff that is very in ous with the image that he does. So one of the things I can say and I've mentioned this on previous episodes and I'm going to put on the screen here a picture, which will show because my background is in biology, like human biology. It's something that I'd be really attuned to.

You can tell how much testosterone someone was exposed to in their developmental period in the developmental period of their bone structure, etc. By looking at their facial structure. It's very, very obvious. He is almost the human. Cliche of someone who was exposed to very, very little testosterone and that's fine.

That's not a problem.

But wait,

Simone: You need to explain that it appears that he was exposed, that [00:12:00] his testosterone levels were not extremely high. throughout his youth because he has, he doesn't show that the physiological signs that are common with that, which you see on the hairline and jawline. I'm going to, I hear

Malcolm: what you're saying.

I'm going to post pictures so guys can see. But people

Simone: don't necessarily know that that's the sign of testosterone. It will

Malcolm: be very obvious if you look at the pictures. And I saw some people when I pointed this out in the past. There's like, there's other things that could cause this facial structure there.

Like, it could be that he had very poor nutrition growing up and he grew up incredibly poor, but Andrew Tate did not grow up in destitute poverty. So no, it wasn't a nutritional issue.

Simone: Just, I, so I was recently listening to a podcast he did like earlier this summer with his brother where the YouTuber more plates, more dates actually did a detailed analysis of like.

How he might be. Using steroids or testosterone or you know, how he's not because he had posted his blood work online to prove that he [00:13:00] didn't because he finds it very offensive that the world would believe that he uses any form of supplementation to make himself more masculine. What his initial blood work did reveal was that his overall testosterone levels were very normal.

which somewhat fits with what you're saying, but his free testosterone levels were very high, which, which he argued is a product of his lifestyle, which I totally agree is a product of his lifestyle because of the way he lives. He lives with, you know, two other men in a very competitive environment, you know, his brother and his cousin.

There's all these women around him. He's not exclusively this female partner testosterone. So yeah, high free testosterone, but again, what his blood work showed was that he does not show higher overall total levels of testosterone, meaning that. Like you say, he's not someone who throughout his life was just like born with insane levels of testosterone.

Malcolm: But I think that this is important to understand his story. So first I want to expand on what someone was saying there because it might not be immediately obvious to the audience, but it's obvious that someone was like biological training. So, if you are [00:14:00] sleeping with a lot of women it actually increases your level of testosterone.

If you feel like you are like a boss guy, like, like you're in charge of everyone, like if you're a boss versus unemployed, like unemployed people have lower testosterone than non unemployed people. If you are in an environment with competitive males, this also increases your testosterone. Everything he's doing right now in his life would increase his exogenous level, like, like it would increase his endogenous level of testosterone without him needing to take supplements. The important thing to note, because this is part of his narrative and it actually makes him more impressive that this is the case, is that he naturally does not have high levels of testosterone.

And when he was growing up, when his brain was forming, when he was beginning to understand the world, he did not have high testosterone levels. And I think that this is really fascinating because if you contrast me with him, like you look at my bone structure and, it's very important to note that yes, so Andrew Tate did grow up poor, but he grew up in England, right? He grew up in an environment where he was not that poor and in [00:15:00] England, so no, it was not a lack of nutrients that led to his bone structure. He, you can tell he grew up as a guy with naturally low testosterone who threw his hard work and effort became a guy with high testosterone.

But I think in some of this stuff, like he has this belief that he's just so innately great that he sells and that's part of the simplistic message that people can underestimate the true arc of what he went through, which is also very interesting. If you contrast, it was my arc. If you look at my bone structure, I'm almost the epitome of.

As high testosterone as a male can be like, I hide it with these glasses, but it's like, look at my forehead and profile. I look like a freaking crow magnet. If you look at my bone structure, my high cheekbones, all of that. I look like my very defined jaw. I look like the epitome. of somebody who grew up with very high testosterone, but I admit openly on this podcast regularly, I have very low testosterone.

Now I haven't gotten it tested, but [00:16:00] I'm sure I do because I'm in a long term monogamous relationship and I have lots of kids who I play a large role in nurturing. And all of those things lead to much lower testosterone rates. And I can feel it. I can feel it in terms of my libido. And I like this. I assume you and Tate are

Simone: like the inverse, which is really interesting.

Although you and Tate are so similar in many ways too. Like you're both extremely smart. You both Are very extra like you're both extremely genuine in yourselves and you're confident in yourselves and, and you, and you just love, you love being you both of you love being you

Malcolm: well, he's smarter. So, so let's talk about how he approached religion because I think this is very interesting and it gives you an understanding of how he thinks.

So you can look at how we approached religion. Well, like, we're like, okay, well, How do we create a religion that can intergenerationally survive and thrive in a technological environment? If you look at the videos explaining why he converted to islam vis a vis growing up christian He said islam does a better job of enforcing their value system [00:17:00] on populations that they control The Christians and Christian countries aren't even Christian anymore that you can live in a Christian country and people can mock God and people won't follow the value system.

But intergenerationally, Islam is very good at enforcing its value system. And that actually almost fits within the framework that we put out in the pragmatist guide to life as a reasonable reason to convert to a religion. Now, why wouldn't we convert to Islam? Because culturally we are so different from it, but and this is really important with Andrew Tate the big areas where we're different from Andrew Tate mostly have to do with cultural differences cultural differences around our relation to women Cultural differences around our relation to ourselves our relation to other people in our environment And so this is something like a lot of people they'd look and they'd be like, oh you must hate the way Andrew Tate talks about women and I'm like, no, I don't.

Not at all. In fact, I would say within many cultural [00:18:00] groups and within many Muslim cultural groups, and I think it's another reason why, I mean, he doesn't mention this, but why he converted is the way that he relates to women and other people in his life is very much the way some Muslim cultural groups do.

And that is nothing to denigrate. That is just what works for their culture. However, and people can be like, well, then why wouldn't you want that? Like, why wouldn't you want your wife serving you hand and foot? Why wouldn't you choose a culture like that? One, I find that incredibly unattractive. Just naturally it might be due to my upbringing.

It might be due to who I am, but like the idea that my wife. Treated me that way or treated other men that way in the past. I would find repulsive. In fact, I would find a woman who slept with a guy like that. When we talk about body count, like sleeping was one guy who treats a woman that way it's worth like 50 in a body count to me, it is, it makes a woman like immediately disgusting because it shows.

That she has a genetic predilection to be willing to do that. And [00:19:00] that is something that I would find disgusting in my daughters. And I think that this is really important when people fantasize about the way they want their wives to treat them in the role they want to have vis a vis their wives. They're also thinking from a cultural perspective, what do I want my daughters to want?

in a man. Well, they should be thinking that. From my cultural perspective, I would be disgusted if one of my daughters was in a relationship where the man treated her the way Andrew Tate claims to treat the women who he's with. That said, Andrew Tate wouldn't feel that way. And that's fine. These are different cultural optimizations and different cultural perspectives.

And we can live in a conservative ecosystem where both of these value systems can exist side by side and understand that we are fighting, you know, what he calls the matrix, what we call the virus against the same thing. Okay. Do you

Simone: think that he would feel differently about women if he had a daughter?[00:20:00]

Malcolm: I know I don't. I think he would want his daughter to have a strong man who treated her sternly, and he would teach her how to accept orders from that type of strong man. I think, absolutely I do. I think that you are underestimating how much he believes what he said. You know, you said something really interesting about Andrew Tate, which I think is sort of true.

Because I don't know if he was always this way. You described him. During one of our morning walks at the method actor who sort of got lost in the role and then became like crazy , and believed he was the character that he was playing. Can you speak a little bit to that?

Simone: Well, you can see it.

I mean, he, I think it was in the context of us talking about like, if he ever gets tired of the way he lives or it's not sustainable for him, but I, I just don't like, I think he doesn't maintain frame. He is the frame and I do feel like he is a method actor who's had a psychotic break and is now. In the fantasy.

He is. And like, you can see it. You can see it when he talks. He is 100 percent genuine and I think he wakes up in the morning and he growls to himself and does his, you know, 90 minute workout and does his whole thing and [00:21:00] like, none of it, none of it is disingenuous. It is 100 percent him. That is like, you know, he ends up in some kind of refugee camp.

He ends up in jail. He's going to be the same. And that's just who he is.

Malcolm: No, I think you're right. He is somebody who is a hundred percent who he is. He's the real deal. Yeah. But there's, there's some things that I want to talk about with him, which I think it's pretty interesting. One was, so I've listened to a lot of his videos and a common thing across some of them is the belief in a conspiracy that has active players that is targeting him or targeting men.

So, an example of this can be buildings are ugly now because they don't want you to have an attraction to the space that you live in, and because of that, you're easier to not defend where you live, and not have pride in where you live, or defend your cultural traditions. Or, another one would be, The reason why the world is so out to get him is like he's a boss and he wouldn't want people telling his employees, like he wouldn't want [00:22:00] one of his employees telling the other ones to revolt against their boss.

So like, of course the boss of the world, the people who secretly run the world are against him. And both of these believe in these sort of like active agents. You are controlling the society where if you look at us and again, I'm focusing on where we're different in our philosophies because that's what's interesting to talk about.

It's not interesting to talk about all the things I like about his philosophy. I mean, obviously he says a lot of things that I think break through the filter. And I think everyone who breaks through the filter sees many of the same things. But you would say, like, if you're like, why are buildings ugly now?

Simone, I think, You would say it's due to supply lines. It's due to construction techniques.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah. It's due to what sells well, what is easy to construct. That's, that's it. Yeah.

Malcolm: It's due to economic concerns. I mean, the reason religious buildings were beautiful in the past is because they were constructed differently from everything else in

Simone: their area.

They were often funded by the most wealthy people in the city who knew that the building represented them and they had a reputation to maintain. That is not how it's done now,

Malcolm: but they also weren't torn down, which is important to [00:23:00] know, whereas all of the same townhouses were torn down, you know, so, so we can look at some of the same things that he does.

And this is 1 thing I would have a criticism with him. Is this level of. Projecting in the belief of like the single people who control everything has a certain level of self victimization to it. Like, you could say he is a warrior fighting against the world, or you could say he is the victim of everybody piling on top of him.

And I think that he presents a very interesting thing, which is even if you persistently self victimize yourself, as I believe he does, portraying himself as the victim in this global conflict where he's the one voice standing up and telling the truth and everyone's attacking him, he doesn't perceive this victimization as disempowering.

Instead, he perceives it as empowering.

Simone: I also think that he furthermore is economically incentivized to, to tow the, , they, , [00:24:00] powerful people doing bad things line because, , one of his big selling propositions for the war room, which is his most like high, probably high margin.

Like his sort of men's club is that, , you are a slave and until you join our special men's club that teaches you how to make money and it gives you a support network you will continue to have these forces arrayed against you and, , it's just harder to sell an almost 8, 000 product.

When you don't have, , a very strong narrative and also like the marketing around it, , makes it sound like it's a resistance movement underground, etc. So, like, again, this is an economic thing. This is not him viewing himself as a victim. Again, Tate is the real deal. .

He sees himself as a chosen one of God. Shown to be a light in a dark world

Malcolm: I guess if I was going to take any nuance in what I'm saying, I would say that while he sees himself as a victim, he doesn't contextualize victimhood the way other people do.

Yeah. He contextualize it as an opportunity [00:25:00] to fight for what's right. Yeah. Yeah. And in so doing, he negates the stereotypes that are negative about being a victim.

Simone: Yeah, he's a, he's a victim in so far as he's a warrior.

Malcolm: Another thing that I would say is, is, is really interesting is the number of men from cultural groups, which I think are incompatible with the lifestyle that Tate is recommending that move into this lifestyle, right? That then see it as aspirational. And when you point out to them, well, if you treat your wife's this way, then you are setting your daughters up to be treated this way.

Are you okay with that? You know, your sons are going to treat their wives this way, their daughters will learn that. And they're like, no, whoa, gross. I don't want , my daughters to be treated this way. And he's appealing to them specifically because they don't see any iteration of masculinity to which they can aspire within the cultural groups that they have access to.

And it's because [00:26:00] they want an iteration of masculinity that solves their immediate issues. So what Tate does is he shows somebody who is both older and somebody who sleeps around with a lot of women. Whereas within most cultural groups, that is not what they want when they get older. When they get older, well then they go out and they...

Attempt to like solve major problems in the world in a very, I call it like a much more wholesome format. You know, we had played on a recent video, a Steve Irwin quip with, with the way his wife is looking at him. When he's talking about how much he wants to save the world and I'll put it here cause apparently it didn't get us demonetized.

 I want to save the world. And you know money? Money's great. I can't get enough money. And you know what I'm going to do with it? I'm gonna buy wilderness areas with it. Every single cent I get goes straight into conservation. And guess what, Charles? I don't give a rip whose money it is, mate.

I'll use it and I'll spend it on buying land.

Malcolm: But I think it shows this is the way that I want to attract a wife. This [00:27:00] is the way that I want to attract a partner because I see us as partners. In fighting the system like equal partners, and I want her to like me for what I aspire to fix in the world and be a part of that. You know, if you look at my cultural ancestors, you know, we've got a kid called Thorson, right?

Like the word stone, right? Like, that's my wife's background, right? Like, like Viking ancestry and, and, and actually Viking ancestry because she has a, Nordic last name, but it's from England, not the pussies who stayed at home. But well, I'm sorry I think one of the reasons why Nordic cultures are so pussified is they had a constant genetic selection where every one of them With an explorational spirit left the country and only left the ones who didn't want to, but what we need to remember is what family structures were like in this cultural tradition, which is not a man took care of a wife who stayed at home and did nothing.

The wife protected the farm. She knew how to use weapons. She grew [00:28:00] the food. She did the manual labor, and the husband's role was to go out and move the family up in status, you know, gain. Additional wealth and jewels and stuff like that and bring it back and move up within the system And when we talk about it, we've talked about this before, the wife is the shield and the husband is the sword. And they work in perfect unison to defeat the forces against them. I, in the previous ones, I said, like, shadow knight and shield knight.

This model for building a family assumes that the wife is going to be the source of consistent income. And the husband is a source of potentially moving the family up and stuff like that. It's a very different way to relate to a woman, but the way that you attract women in this is not by putting them down because you're looking for a woman who is a competent warrior and producer, because.

You believe that strong women make strong sons, whereas if you look at the way that he wants to create strong sons, it's very interesting, right? It's much closer to the Jordan Peterson model, which is, I am going to be very strict [00:29:00] on these boys. I am going to be very. Regimented in how they're raised and this can create warriors, but it doesn't create kings.

If you create a son to efficiently obey the orders of somebody who is bigger than them or has more power than them. Well, then you're creating a kid who's going to obey, hopefully, your cultural group, which is why it's pretty smart that given that these are his inclinations, that he would move into the Islamic cultural group because if he raised a kid this way within the Christian cultural group, then they're just going to end up being a simp to mainstream society.

 I think that people who are unfamiliar with this style of parenting can misunderstand what we're saying in it. We are attempting to stoke the fire of our children's wills as much as possible. Some cultural groups attempt to stamp out. Their children's wills and get them to fit. A very narrow conformed set of rules. And then other cultural groups see it as their goal to increase the [00:30:00] size of their child's wills

For example, if I believe that one thing is just, and my child believes another thing is just, or they don't understand why I have given them some rule and they have logic behind why they don't understand why I have given them that rule. It is not success for me. Two. Break their will and force them to follow a rule that they don't understand. That makes no sense to them. That is me having failed. As a parent. Because that's not who i want them to be as an adult i don't want people who are bigger than them or stronger than them or have more power than them to be able to

force them to follow rules that they feel are unjust because one of the things I've noticed in the world, you know, when we interact with young people is the core thing that seems to relate to their ability to actionably affect the future. Is the size of this internal flame inside them, which I can almost immediately sense when I meet someone. How big. And bright. Is your [00:31:00] will.

Malcolm: Yeah. So, I

Simone: mean, yeah. So a couple, a couple thoughts here. Like when you look at American history and you look at groups that sort of took these two different approaches, you had the Cavaliers in the South. Who did raise people the Andrew Tate style, like women were very much disempowered. Men were very much sort of like, yeah, like do your thing, be super man, manly.

And what, what has happened, you know, from the South, how many, you know, like it's, it's not been the best outcome. We're more Scots Irish. I don't know if we've, you know, the Scots Irish have done much better. I mean, I think they're, like you say, arguments to be made for both sides.

Malcolm: They've done very well in terms of wealth.

 In terms of innovation power. But they've done very poorly in terms of fertility

Simone: rates. Yeah. And then another thing, I think that the differentiation that you're pointing out between the Andrew state, the Andrew Tate model of masculinity and the typical adult male model of masculinity is the Andrew Tate model of masculinity to me.

And, you know, obviously, yeah, I guess it works in an Islamic format, but I would say it is the epitome of toxic masculinity because it is all about resource acquisition. It is all about using [00:32:00] and exploiting and making money and spending money. But I don't see anything being built. I don't see, and he talks about, you know, beautiful buildings and all these amazing things, but I don't see his people, you know, the people he trains, or him talking about like, let's get us off planet, let's build new medical interventions, let's like, you know, move society forward.

I don't hear that. Because it's all a status hierarchy. Yeah, it's all about status, it's all about women, so I see, you know, like, and that is a big part of masculinity, right? Like that, you know, that is a big thing, but it is also for, you know, Young men who have yet to establish themselves. And I feel like true masculinity is, is not about that, that flailing signaling, which is really something that should be done as like.

A, a, a signaler to good partners that, that you are a good investment. Like that's, that, that is for the earlier point in your life. I think for, for adult men, real masculinity is settling down is having a family is raising them in a strong culture and setting them up for success, but also building like building the [00:33:00] next, the next step.

I mean, I think Elon Musk exemplifies real masculinity, which is literally build the thing. Literally.

Malcolm: So I think that you're being dis, I think that you're being un charitable unfair to say real masculinity. Okay. This is what our cultural group values. Our cultural group values people who do s**t.

And that's why people from our cultural group do s**t. Do s**t. Yeah. He values people who appear high status. Who acquire, acquire s**t. How Signal other men. Yeah. He views his life value from the aesthetic that he portrays onto reality. The important thing is he is doing that well. He's doing that

Simone: as well as a human can do.

Yeah, he uses diamond watches and his Savile Row suits and his Bugatti in his private plane for sure. Yeah.

Malcolm: What's important is that when you're choosing who you take advice from, and when you're choosing who you model, you need to look at the outcomes of choosing these two different value systems, okay?

What happens to cultural groups who choose his value system? What happens if you choose his value system and how you find a wife? Hmm. [00:34:00] It's not, it will lead to your kids turning out the way the people who have historically chosen that value system have turned out. What happens if you choose our value system?

It will lead to, now we are trying to, because as we've pointed out very clearly, our value system leads to people who end up changing the world, but who are low fertility, who end up having a high economic success. Who end up having high political power, but who are low fertility. So we're trying to tweak it.

We're trying to improve it. He could do the same thing. He could say, well, I'm from a group that doesn't have a fertility problem, but that has an economic power activation, making the world a better place problem. The, problem is. Is that he's done a very bad job at tweaking it or he hasn't actively tweaked it in any way that I can see He's just repackaging it a bit for a modern audience, but I should note People when they look at andrew tate They look at him and they're like, Oh my God, he's so [00:35:00] misogynistic.

This is because, and keep in mind, Andrew Tate converted into this cultural group. You know, he wasn't born into this cultural group, but it is, it is because you have blinded yourself to the truth of the cultural group he's from. And if anything, he's an incredibly sanitized iteration of that cultural group.

Treats women in his life. dramatically better than the average person of this cultural group dramatically better. He sees them as dramatically more human. And he does say, you know, he wants women in his life to feel cherished. Always. He wants them to feel like Queens always. He just doesn't want them to have agency because women to him, and he is right about this from his cultural perspective are a status symbol.

 And I should note here.

The type of women who are attracted to a man who acts like Andrew Tate, like that's their thing. That's what they want from a cultural group. I don't know the nice way to say this. But they would often be very.

Disagreeable. As partners to men who did not [00:36:00] treat them the way that Andrew Tate teach them the type of women who are attracted to men like that. Often need to be treated like that. To be tolerable to be around for men of any cultural group. He's not taking women off the table who, if they had met a guy like me, he could have been people like my wife. and I think that that's important to remember. When he says, women need to be treated this way to be tolerable. He is speaking from personal experience because the type of women who settled for a man like him need to be treated that way to be tolerable

Malcolm: And urbanized.

far earlier than our cultural groups, our cultural groups were raiding barbarians for much longer. And so women had to work much more. And when our cultural groups, when the world industrialized, we moved, you know, your family moved to Chicago to the edge of the world. My family moved, you know, to, To the Carolinas and then further to Texas, then your family moved further to [00:37:00] Carol, California.

And even your dad, you know, when he came of age, he went to Japan, right? And my dad, when he came of age, he went to start a company in South America. And then what did we do when we started our first company? It was in Peru. Like we have this. It's predilection to always be on what we would consider as close as we can get to the edge of civilization, because it is not a culture that is optimized for stability, or social stability.

So in many ways, and I think this is why preparism is so big in America, because so many people in America are descended from cultural groups that just are really not optimized for social stability. They know it, they're excited, and in a world where systems begin to collapse, Americans are going to do like, Stupidly.

Well, because they're just a lot of them are from cultural groups that are optimized around that cultural groups where women are just totally disempowered and treat it as status symbols is a sane strategy. If you have a totally safe home base where women actually can stay at home and not worrying about the need to defend

Simone: themselves.

I don't know. I just I think it [00:38:00] becomes in that scenario in those societies. It just becomes a much more hostile and. Vicious society where women immediately become real currency, if you know what I mean.

Malcolm: Well, I think that's a result of the stability of those regions intergenerationally. Yeah. The areas where those cultural groups have come from have been some of the longest civilizationally stable areas in the world since Babylon.

You know, like, yeah, I mean, anyway, yeah, I hear what you're saying. And I, I guess what I'm just saying is, is, is it's not, he's not acting wrong. And neither of us has a culture that actually historically completely works and we should both be attempting to tweak it in ways that can ensure that our descendants thrive.

But I don't think that a necessary one of those tweaks is that he treats women better. I would never [00:39:00] treat women that way. And I, and I, the thing I really worry about. It is men, young men, who see the way he's acting and is like, Oh yeah, I was in my young social circle, I want to be treated this way. Yeah, but do you want to be an 80 year old bragging about how many women you're sleeping with?

Like, do you understand how gross that is? Like, he's on the edge of it getting pretty gross. And it's important that you understand... What's actually being sold here and what that means for your descendants if you optimize around that strategy

Simone: for what it's worth He seems to be moving away in his content from talking about women,

Malcolm: which is good.

Yeah, it's still intrinsic I mean, I'd love it if he could because women I won't say there it's not like women are the problem but but securing women And building relationships that are stable and have stable gender dynamics in a world where all of this is falling apart is an important thing to note and to work around.

As is the way you contextualize yourself. I really love his radical [00:40:00] personal responsibility stance. Which is something that we really promote. And I'd actually say that we probably agree with 90 percent of what he says, but I think that 90 percent of what he says, isn't what you think if you're only listening to the

Simone: The crazy stuff that the news covers.

Malcolm: And I actually think that he is internally logically consistent, you know, as I said it was like Yeah. Yeah. The antinatalists who are like the David Benatar variety, I'm like, look, you guys are just not logically consistent. This is not impressive to me. But of the efilism variety, I'm like, look, I think you guys are terrible.

These are the ones who want to kill all humans. We have a video about that. I can like do it at the end of this one. But you're at least logically consistent. Yeah. And, and that's what I say about him. I think he's both smart and logically consistent, but not what I would want for my daughters to

Simone: marry.

Not our style, but they style. And yeah, I mean, one of our core cultural tenants is that we very much celebrate the fact that there are lots of people taking approaches that we wouldn't take because we would like for a maximum number of different [00:41:00] approaches to be taken.

Malcolm: Absolutely.

Simone: Yeah. So Tate, you do you, doing great.

Yeah, you're

Malcolm: doing it. You're doing a good job and I think you are on the whole, maybe making the world a better place. We'll see how it plays out.

Simone: Maybe not. Keep it up, buddy. We'll see. But yeah, power to the people.

Malcolm: But I can tell you, I suspect our cultural group to dramatically out compete his, given at least what I see right now, but I guess I wouldn't be in it if I didn't.

Simone: Yeah, right. So time will tell.

Malcolm: But you, everyone should have a sword. It's very important. It'll solve all of your problems.

Simone: You know, I think everyone should have sword sponsorships

Malcolm: eventually. As

Simone: shown in that scene in Indiana Jones, do not bring a blade. To a gunfight. All right.

I guarantee you don't walk around your house with a sword because you're not a commander. I'm a commander. You know, like when you command the troops into battle. That's me.[00:42:00]

Malcolm: And that's one of the problems with a lot of these cultures that, that, that see masculinity as like buffness and everything like that. And we're like, okay which cultural group is stereotypically the least buff of all cultural groups in the world, least athletically inclined.

And the stereotypes would say, Oh, that's the Jewish cultural group, but they're the cultural group that's cleaning up in our world today. You know, fertility rate economically. Which I think shows how pointless it is to overemphasize on this meaningless signaling of masculinity over competence and competitiveness.

Well, especially

Simone: in an age of technology. Yeah. Technology is the new masculinity, we say

Malcolm: I had to choose a religion for myself other than the one I'm trying to create, it would not be Islam. It would be Judaism. But anyway.

Simone: Well, the anti Semites are going to love that one. Yeah,

Malcolm: yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't we can't talk about the ongoing conflict [00:43:00] because Simone said my tweets would get us in trouble.

Yep. So... Mouth shut, Malcolm. We won't. I'll keep my mouth

Simone: shut. But please don't.

Malcolm: I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying a single word, am I, Simone? No. I'm keeping my mouth...

Simone: Yep, we're going to... Heat up the hibachi, make some fried rice tonight. Yeah. Want to do a cook off? Oh yeah.

Malcolm: She got me a hibachi grill for my birthday and it is amazing.

Cultural appropriation right there. Mrs. Born

Simone: in Japan. Highly insensitive, but that's what we do. Wait, I was born in Japan. No, that doesn't give me the right. Well, you may also like our hibachi grills even.

Malcolm: So ethnicity isn't a real thing. Oh, right. You were born in Japan. You are Japanese culturally because ethnicity doesn't exist.

Right. I forgot. So how else could you be Japanese other than being born there and having the name Haruko?

Simone: One has to wonder. Yeah. There you go. I love you. I love you

Malcolm: too.

[00:44:00] Oh

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