In this episode, the hosts dive into the spicy topic of contemporary female-focused romance literature. They dissect several popular fantasy books like 'A Court of Thorns and Roses,' 'Trial of the Sun Queen,' and others, revealing recurring themes of 'mate bonds,' dominantly possessive men, and the normalization of toxic female behavior. Through detailed analysis, they uncover how these stories reflect modern women's struggles with dating, promiscuity, and the evolving norms of relationships. The hosts question the psychological impact of these narratives and critique their perpetuation of unhealthy relational dynamics and unrealistic romantic fantasies.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone.

I'm excited to be here with you today. Today we here are going to be discussing a spicy topic. In a recent episode we were talking about the de botched things that women read in their fantasy literature. And I was talking to you this morning about it and you were going over them and you were like, no, that is like.

You listen to this and, and when I heard about the stuff, it's bad. No, were listening to when it is explained to me by my quote unquote trad wife, I guess is what the media calls you. What is in these fantasy books? I, I am like

In one hour on six Ed World?

Malcolm Collins: I I, yeah. But then it got worse.

Mm-hmm. Because I start doing like, I wanna understand if this stuff that you're telling me is accurate, I want to go into this so I start, right?

'cause I'm

Simone Collins: sure you thought I was crazy. It couldn't possibly be that, no, that these are bestselling very popular

Malcolm Collins: books than what you said. Because I start going into all of this and I get summaries of the books, and I get summaries of all these plot points. And it keeps, and there's this, this phrase that keeps coming up.

I mean, and I'm talking across books here. It was like, well, X was mated to X or X was bound to y. And I was like,

what the hell is wrong with you people?

Malcolm Collins: what is this?

She's mated thing I haven't heard. And I go to my wife about this. Okay. And you're like. I don't, I Wait, what? I haven't read anything about this weird kinky mated thing, so I ask because the first one that you talked about was the court of thorns and roses.

Yeah. And here's what AI had to say about that. Okay. It said, yes, the mate Mont Trope is 100% in a Court of Thorns and Roses series. It is, and it's arguably the series, is it mainstream to kink into modern Romantic. So you are like, I don't even remember it from my, in my

Simone Collins: defense, I use these as pregnancy sage, Xanax.

The reason I listen to romantic books is they are so bad and so poorly written that they literally put me to sleep. Like I used to listen to really dry history books to fall asleep. And now I'm like, oh, but I need to know what happened.

Malcolm Collins: No, I, I read it for the plot. That's why I have, you know, you know, I I completely agree with you.

I do not engage in any of this for, for, for anything other than just the articles. Is that your version of, I read it for the, for the articles, the play, you know, that's what they used to say about Playboy, right?

Simone Collins: No, no, because the plot's not good. The and, and here, like my problem is I really hate the female characters and I really hate what they normalize in terms of like, this is normal relationship behavior.

If you're a woman, and I can get into this too,

Malcolm Collins: because there's, oh, we're gonna get into this, we're gonna get into each of these, but I wanted to start with this mate bonding trope, because I found this really interesting. Okay. And I think it's important to note here because and we're gonna go over all the stories it's in, in just a second because it has become so ubiquitous in female focused romance literature.

The. For example, you didn't even notice when it was in a story, and yet it is, if you're talking like Omega verse, you can see our omega verse episode. Oh. Where people are like, it is closer to the Omega verse than it is to real life. It is definitely a really fairly bizarre kink. And it's interesting to study because it shows something that modern women are not finding in society today.

Well, here,

Simone Collins: no, here's, here's my thing. I don't think it's bizarre. I think it's an answer to larger normalization of female promiscuity. So if you can no longer have like, your one true love that you meet, like out of adolescence and you lose your virginity with them, or like they're your very first, like second maybe.

Right? You know, and then that's, that's it. That's your true love. You met your person. There has to be some other mechanism, some other, you know, physics have to be at play to explain why the, the, the, the. Bond being described in the romance novel is meaningful 'cause otherwise it's just another rung on the ladder.

Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: I disagree Really. And we'll go into this a little bit. Yeah. So first, what is it, because people may not know. So, mate, bonds occur in these stories. It is a magical or biological or faded connection between two characters, usually male and female.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: It is irresistible, it is permanent, it is non-consensual.

It's often physically overwhelming or arousal leaked.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And it is tied to something like Destiny or something like that. Basically it's not a choice. So if we're talking about the first story that we're gonna be looking at, which is Court of Thrones and whatever th thorns and roses Frey realizes that she's mated, toand, FARA.

FAA realizes she's sorry. You. Oh, you actually, you actually, I've listened

Simone Collins: to them as audiobooks to fall asleep, so I know how the names are pronounced.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. FAA realizes she's M it to Rand and is physically and emotionally pulled to him despite being in another relationship. Oh, sand. Oh. Oh. I can't, I can't choose my partner.

I'm, I know I'm dating someone, but I just have to mate. With this other person. And then betray my former lover because I'm just so mated now. Or another one, the, the fourth wing violet and Zayden share a dragon forged bond.

Simone Collins: Ooh. Wait, does the dragon do it to them as a dragon like cupid, where he just like, well,

Malcolm Collins: we'll get into it.

We'll get a trial of the sun Queen Laura is claimed as a potential mate by multiple kings who treat her as magical property. But she's

Simone Collins: bonded to nadir this dark aurora prince

bonded.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay.

You are into this. No, I was talking, I was telling you how, like they were describing the bonding is like, you feel the magic under your skin.

Like, it, it's, ugh. I really, I really hate it, but like, I. No, I, I really, I, I think you're missing it because the, what you're missing in these, okay, go ahead.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I will, I will go and then you can provide the counter argument. Okay. Yes. So we'll give some theories about what might be causing it. Then I'm gonna give my theory and then you can give your theory.

Okay. All right. All right. All right. Psychological safety and submission. The mate bond removes the burden of choosing a partner. It tells the reader this is right, no need to second guess. It offers a fantasy where the woman is pursued relentlessly, not because she's attractive or charming, he literally can't help it.

Mm-hmm.

And in a world of choice paralysis and dating, which you have in our current world, this feels safe. Now I think all of those are real, real things.

Okay.

You also have eroticism without guilt, which is actually really big for women. It allows women to desire power, sex, and obsession. Oh.

Without feeling responsible for it. Like,

Simone Collins: it's not their fault that they wanna

Malcolm Collins: to feel this. Yeah.

Simone Collins: It's. The, it's the magic coursing under my blood that reacts every time he touches me, that I don't, I worse me, I don't actually

Malcolm Collins: feel arousal. Right? How interesting how male fantasy was a softened edge.

These men are aggressive, dominant, or even violent, but the mate bond means they'll never hurt her. So it allows a woman to have an attraction to violent men while still feeling safe within the romantic context.

Ah,

but I'll tell you what I really think it is. Okay. I think it actually comes down to the omega verse concept more.

Yeah. Which,

Simone Collins: I mean, I think, so there was this, so there was like twilight, which is very, I think sort of the last really, well maybe 50 shades of gray in twilight were the last really popular romance novels of what I would call the old genre, where you have an innocent, mostly sexless young woman. Who discovers her sexuality through her first love.

And then that's kind of it. And then you have the Omega verse, which I think is the beginning of this new version of female romance, which I think better accommodates modern female dating and sexuality.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. But let's talk about this. Let's do it. So I I, I think omega verse is actually an easier thing to explore it with.

'cause I actually think that this is like omega verse light. So we've talked about Omega verse before, but what happens in Omega verse stories is some males and some females are born alphas or omegas. And, and most are born betas. Betas just means basically a normal human, male or female. Mm-hmm. But sometimes they are born as either these.

Very dominant figures who are like very dominant to other individuals. And, and sometimes they're born as very like submissive figures who don't want to be submissive often, like omegas often don't wanna be really be omegas. But they cannot help but resist, be attracted to the dominant alphas and then be, be pair bond to them, you know, whether they want to or not.

Now what's actually being recreated here is in our current world of sexist men and women, I. Oh, alphas and Omegas recreate the concept of biological sex. It's, you have this one category of human, which is male 'cause it's usually a male alpha is interested in a female omega. And these stories are male omegas, often common.

But you have this one male who is extra tough and strong and everybody listens to him. And then you have women. But these women aren't like normal women. They're really attracted to dominant males, and they aren't like normal women. When they see a dominant male, why, my goodness, they just get so turned on.

There's nothing they can do about it. And not like normal women when they meet with someone. My goodness. It's for life. And what you're actually seeing here is they have recreated within a fantasy context the role that women lost in our society. Oh.

Simone Collins: And, and by obscuring it behind. This new form of sexuality, you're making it safe again.

Because God forbid they're not into

Malcolm Collins: dominant, strong males and lifelong relationships. It's a kink. It's really weird. And that somehow

Simone Collins: makes it okay. That is what we've come to.

Malcolm Collins: No, that is actually what we've come to as a society. All right. Now, women are like, no, I'm just, I'm not reading about a woman who finds a guy who she falls desperately in love with, and that arousal is a component of that, and that she wants to spend her entire life with him, and she'll betray other men on his behalf, you know, just because she likes serving this guy.

It's some sort of a weird kink.

Simone Collins: All right. I, I will say to that very compelling theory, and I think you're right, but I'm gonna, yes. And you right that yes. That's true. And I think the other thing that's happening, and we've also talked about this dynamic, is that more women now are having more partners before they get married.

And one of the things that they struggle with is, is the more partners you have on average, the less of a strong hormonal response you have to those subsequent partners. Yes. So the less you're going through this process of feeling really in love, like feeling that deep chemical infatuation that you do as a woman the first time you're sexually intimate, which I did not believe existed before I had sex.

And then I had sex with you. And then we broke up and I went through withdrawal and I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. Is this real? So

Malcolm Collins: for context here the more partners a woman sleeps with, the less stable her relationships often are, and the less oxytocin she releases during sex, which determines how psychologically bonded she can feel.

It note, note, it determines how psychologically bonded she's to a partner. Without her consent really. Mm-hmm. Because this is something that is happening without, like, my wife didn't choose to love me. I did not. She was forced to because she hadn't had sex before. Yeah. I brainwashed her with, you know, weird human biology.

Right. Well, but

Simone Collins: there's something hot about that. That first time that you fall in love as a woman, right. That like you so can't help it. And it's just so all encompassing. And I think that's when you hear about this bonding, whether it's like the magic under your skin or fate saying this or Dragon, but you can explain that one later.

Or the Omega dynamic. Like I think that's trying to capture some of that which to not sexless, but rather sex experienced women is understandable and desired and they want that again. 'cause I've had friends who've had a lot of relationships before. They said, yeah, they want those early relationships.

And they would say, they would keep saying like, well, I'm just waiting to get that feeling again and I can't break it to them that like. You're not gonna get that feeling again. But what you're missing in a lot of these, these newer romance novels, which you didn't see from like the virginal teen romance novels, is that the female protagonists in them are sexually experienced.

So FAA in the Court of Thorns and Roses series before she ends up, like, before like the, the series starts, she is sexually experienced. And then, and hold on. This is like medieval Europe, right? Or something? Yeah, she was just fooling around with a boy in the village. Same with the

Malcolm Collins: by, by the way, just so people know.

That's very anachronistic. People did not sleep around in medieval Europe before. Yeah. You,

Simone Collins: you, you don't do that. And, and then in, in the other book, with Ry sand. What? The aurora King? Oh, the, the, the something or the Orano series? The, the, the care, the protagonist lore is actually quite slutty.

Like she sleeps around a lot, both to like get what she needs and also for fun. So these are sexually experienced women. And then in the first book of each of these series, the women. Think they've fallen in love with their man, and like you as the reader are led to believe like, oh, like he's the one.

And so I think this is very similar to like women who, you know, like, oh, come on, like this time, right? Like, I'm gonna marry this guy, and then another guy come along. Yeah. But then, yeah, then, then it turns out in each of these that like, oh, actually no, that guy's an a*****e. Like, I don't, he's, he's bad.

He's kind of proto abusive. Like maybe he's violent, proto, find you. Yeah. Like he's, no, he's, he's really bad. And it's this other bad boy that I'm irresistibly attracted to who's really the one, and that's where you get in a deal. They're often quite

Malcolm Collins: abusive as well, which we'll get to you in a sense. No, they're,

Simone Collins: yeah, they're actually, they're typically the bad boys in the previous.

Mm-hmm. Like in the first book, they're like the dark male antagonist. And then in the second book, it turns out that they're the ones to whom they're bonded. But I think the larger point is to me. I think this more tracks the, the trajectory of a more sexually experienced woman who's looking for that feeling of, of falling in love again and who's going through relationships where like she's like, this is the one, you know, he's my, he's my guy.

And then like, ah, it doesn't really work out. Well, he was, he was like, messed up anyway. He was, he was a bad person. Well,

Malcolm Collins: what's what's really interesting in these stories, and we'll get to it, is a repeated justification of serial monogamy. The idea that it is okay and wall, but

Simone Collins: also sort of, 'cause also another thing that really shows up a lot in these is each of these, like, like the main character in these first books each of them has like a wingman, like a best friend slash guard Okay.

Who like interacts maybe a little bit more with the female protagonist and like does a lot of the exposition and stuff. And she does most of her interaction. With him and he's also super hot. So like, I don't know man, like, but sure kind of. Do they ever with this

Malcolm Collins: wingman or like

Simone Collins: show? No, they never, they never sleep with the wingman, but there's a lot of flirting and they're very hot.

So

Malcolm Collins: I don't

Simone Collins: know what's going on there. I'm

Malcolm Collins: surrounded by a hotman that flirt with me, and I have one guy who I like, but then I gotta go after the bad boy. Well, no. Yeah, because,

Simone Collins: well, the alpha male who's a little bit more distant, you know, but I can't resist the alpha male because I made it to him. Well, no, no, no.

That's, that's the second alpha male, you know, the second alpha, first alpha male, more alpha male you think is the one. But then, no, he's not the one. He's, he's actually a jerk. And then, you know, this next one for sure except then they're super abusive toward all of them. And of course we're gonna get to that next, I guess,

Malcolm Collins: but, okay, let's, let's go to the other series that have this mated trope.

Okay? Okay. Yeah. But you've also got, you know, in addition to the, the thorn of court roses and stuff. Yeah. And then fourth wing, and then try all of the Sun Queen Uhhuh. You have the Savage Land Series. This one includes like scenting marking possessiveness. So like classic Omega, like way more standard Omega.

Maybe I should get

Simone Collins: that one. Maybe that one will put me to sleep. I can't, I can't bear to pay for these, so I need to get them for free on Audible plus. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: okay. No, no, of course you can't.

Simone Collins: I'll if, if only you were paying for your it's too embarrassing. It's too humiliating, but you can really

well expense

it.

Malcolm Collins: You can expense it to the show. You need to watch these for our fans so you can tell them how bad they're, yeah. You, you've got the, the Bridge King, but the thing, I can't even really

Simone Collins: talk about them well because again, like I'm falling, they make me fall asleep, which I really need.

Malcolm Collins: It's, it's hard to sleep.

It has a arranged marriage. You've got faded mates which, which has books like Feral Sins, crave Wolf Gone. You've got From Blood to Ash. And as to why it's, it's so common here. I, I love what it says. Built in sexual tension. No need to build chemistry. Just say, mate. Bond commission.

Fantasy. Yeah. It's

Simone Collins: such lazy writing, like literally. Yeah. Women did overpower Your AI generated ai written stories are written better than these. Like, I swear if I got a penny every time the author of In, in the Court of Thorns and Roses series wrote and his throat bobbed like to indicate that he was like that.

Someone was nervous. I would be rich. Like, can you, okay. Stop. Okay. But

Malcolm Collins: I love this one. TikTok Virality M it to the Dark Prince gets more clicks than slow burn emotional maturity. Made it to m to the dark. You No, that's all you need to study. There should just be, we were looking at like, books today and one just said Rich Fay Boyfriend or something.

Yeah, it was like, like, yeah,

Simone Collins: like, like Filthy Rich fay. No, it was Rich

Malcolm Collins: Fas.

Simone Collins: No, it was like, it was like some something rich Fay. Yeah, something, something I know.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. He was rich

Simone Collins: and he was a fake and he was also like either dirty or mean or something like that. It was like, okay, so we're just doing like K hashtags now.

Yeah. It's just

Malcolm Collins: like, what are you into girl? Yeah. Like yeah.

Simone Collins: Literally looks like when you go onto N FW subreddits where sometimes they'll tag like the type of content with like specific fetish. Like, no, we're just gonna put these on the titles of books now, because you know what, people don't, they work from home now.

They're not commuting on buses. They don't have to be ashamed of the book covers anymore. So they're like, screw it. Just put it on the cover. I'm gonna be

Malcolm Collins: honest, a lot of these books have pretty dope covers.

Simone Collins: No, no. Designs and proving. I, I'm, I'm with you on that. They're, they're, they're fine.

The thorn

Malcolm Collins: of whatever.

Simone Collins: Really? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It's very intricate. Cool. I, I like these. I they look pretty like cool. I'm like, I, I adored my room with those if I didn't know that this was all about, and you know, the, but anyway, let's, let's go into the first book. So we're just gonna go into like all the bad stuff as teaching women.

'cause women, it gives me so much. They come at me and they're like, do you know about all of the disgusting things that like porn sites are teaching men? And I'm like, I have been to Barnes and let's talk about what you are being taught. Well,

Simone Collins: and, and first let me point out that like the, the top traffic erotic material that men consume is, is eager, slutty women.

True. Like, there is just wild consent. They're loving it. Like men, if, if we had, if I had to interpret what they wanted, they just want women to be happy and they just really want them to want their day.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. No, I'm, I'm just actually gonna, like right now I'm gonna see Han. So we're not even looking at like PornHub, so we're not looking at anything like that

Simone Collins: niche.

If you're just looking at like,

Malcolm Collins: anything on the front page here of, of recent submissions forced, no, no, no. One tentacles. Debbie. It's labeled tickling as well, so yeah, the No, it is, it is, it is not as common as people say. It's I'm

Simone Collins: just going to rn, SFW just like the most generic and I'm going top of all time.

Solo orgasm, sexy, brunette. I'm mature, well, I can't use that word. Freckled babe. Everything here. Best poop reveal ever. This is just cutie, just enthusiastic Women, just, they're more enthusiastic women.

Malcolm Collins: And what happens when you go to the top books that women are reading? The romantics, it's, it's people being mated.

It's, yeah. The rich, evil faith. Yeah. Lack of consent. It's werewolves and vampires and,

Simone Collins: but honestly, like all, all the dark stuff that the men are doing in these series doesn't come close to the level of shady behavior of the female protagonist. And that's also, I

Malcolm Collins: think I've always said that I think this is why I had such an easy time on sexual marketplaces.

'cause I actually am like a bad boy in what turns me on. So I, I don't, I, I get all of these girls who are interested in this stuff you know, back when I was dating in high school and they're like, oh, well you,

Simone Collins: well you're, you're a bad boy In terms of what people like get women on average are more likely to be turned on by.

But you're not a dark triad dick to women. Yes. Like, you're not like in real life. A jerk as, as one might say, which

Malcolm Collins: is just became the roulette real of like easy, you know, college and you know, whatever. So,

Yeah. But,

but let's go into the bad behavior here. Okay? Okay. So part one, Frey's Reckless and selfish Behavior.

Faye Rob. So apparently she spots a large wolf while hunting. She suspects it may be a magical fa creature in disguise, meaning she thinks it might be sentient. Mm-hmm. And it would be illegal to heal, kill it, and risk her family's life. Mm-hmm. She doesn't decide to kill it because she needs food or something.

She wants, its pelt for money. She risks potentially killing a sentient creature and her family's life. Mm-hmm. Just to earn a little money. Yeah. This is the opening act. Mm-hmm. It is never treated as a bad thing. And by the way, it turns out that it was sentient. Oh yeah. Is this ever played? Like, oh, I murdered a sentient thing, or I, yeah,

Simone Collins: no.

She goes to, as, as penance for this crime that she commits. The, the, the first lover of hers shows up in wolf form. And it's like, I am gonna basically take you as hostage in my court, and of course you're gonna live there and like, it's gonna be, you're, you're gonna eat off gold plates. And life was luxurious.

I but, but she goes, yeah. So she, she goes as a, a prisoner, you know, to pay out her sentence for, for murdering this person, this Faye. And, yeah. Everyone's like, yeah, he was my best friend. You know, he was, he was a great guy. You killed him. You know, they, it, it, like they were, it comes up a, it comes up a bunch.

That's great.

Malcolm Collins: They, they're like, and you knew, you thought she doesn't mention, well, I thought he might be a Faye, but, you know, whatever. I wanted the money. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I don't think she ever says she's sorry. I think she's just, no, actually here's what she does. Is because actually what it turns out that the king of this court, who's her first, you know, man, number one who turns out to be a juror, who she betrays a bunch, but continue who she betrays.

Well, she, these women bet we're, we're getting there. He was sending these men out because he needed, I think to trigger something. But he knew he was sending these men to their deaths. So.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah. So let's talk about the first love interest Tamlin. Alright. Oh yeah. Tamlin. Yes. He's the one You a high paid Lord.

Super powerful. Immortal being. Mm-hmm. So very old by the way. Like thousand years. Oh no. The age

Simone Collins: gaps are huge. Yeah. And then I love that women will like trash men for their age gaps and stuff. No, no, no, no, no, no. When you look like, when you look at like, book reviews of romance novels, they're like, love the age gap, or like, it's just, it's a, it's a keyword.

Women look up, they love age gaps and yet they like hate Leonardo DiCaprio for stopping dating women after the 25. Oh, it's, it's so hypo really funny. But yeah, like, in, in the other book that we're talking about where there's nadir and lore, nadir is like 250 years old and she's like 21. So that's, you know, I think the problem is the age gap's not big enough.

DiCaprio needs to be like, I. 200 years. Used to

Malcolm Collins: be like a 90-year-old man dating like a 21-year-old. No, no. He needs

Simone Collins: to be 290. Malcolm. You're missing the

Malcolm Collins: native women will be like, well, this is what I've always been into, to be honest. He was in ancient cinema from the 1990s. Do you ever used to think I looked like DiCaprio when I was younger?

That was like a common, like before it was, it was

Simone Collins: Harry Potter, you know, when you were young Before I met you?

Malcolm Collins: No, before Harry Potter. It was DiCaprio. Everyone saw it. Yeah.

Simone Collins: But that was before when your mom gave you those highlights. Yeah. You Oh yeah. Yeah. When I had

Malcolm Collins: the, yeah. And I never got it. I always thought that was weird.

Simone Collins: Your mom forced it on you. It was non-consensual. That's a non-consensual

Malcolm Collins: highlights. You'll deal with the trauma

Simone Collins: someday.

Malcolm Collins: So, so he's controlling emotionally closed off and becomes possessive in the books. He locks Faye in his house like a captive to quote unquote protect her. She has panic attacks, but he refuses to let her leave.

Despite this, she constantly defends and excuses his behavior. This sets up the idea that controlling behavior is a sign of deep romantic devotion. But then there's the other guy, the, the, the bad guy. R Sand. Sand who is the deep mystery character. Yeah. And, and this guy who she ends up liking he gives her drugs and then per parades her around everyone in revealing clothing.

Yeah, no. So

Simone Collins: like, if, if, if this first dude was keeping this woman prisoner as, as penance for her crime, the second dude steals her and. Like she's kept in a, like actual dungeon. Like keep in mind the first tamlin keeps her in a beautiful palace and room. She's like in a dungeon starving that women don't injured want that they want the actual dungeon.

Yeah. She's like in a dungeon. She's, she's severely injured and then he, he parades her out and slutty dresses and like date rape drugs her like every night because that's hot. And then, wait, why is she hugging her? Oh, funsies. For funsies. Yeah. Like to mess with her. I mean, maybe the readers kind of like when they realized later that he had feelings for her that he was just trying to like, because this, it's complicated, but like he, he, he actually was like.

At the time, we'll say, dating the evil witch queen that has to be defeated in the first book. And he's in her court and, and he is pretending to torture this female protagonist rah. Because, because, you know, the, the evil witch queen, queen freaking hates her. I can't remember why again, he used to fall asleep.

Malcolm Collins: But wait, did, but she's forced to walk around under, under, yeah, because he's like, oh no,

Simone Collins: I'm, I'm here. Like, I think, so to protect her he has to like, torture her and, and have her believe that he's torturing her. So he parades her around in slutty dresses and like date rig jugs her. And then she like dances around drunkenly until she's thrown back in the dungeon.

Malcolm Collins: Because she hates doing all this, and it's not her choice.

Simone Collins: It's horrible. It's, it's horrible. It's not sexy at all. She doesn't wanna

Malcolm Collins: berated in front of wealthy people in skimpy dresses and forced to dance.

Simone Collins: No, no, definitely not. No. Mm-hmm. No,

Malcolm Collins: just, just like the Handmaid's Tale protestors definitely don't want some wealthy high status guy to be forced to breed them in front of a jealous high status woman.

God, that's not what they're, that's not a weird kink for now. I hate that you have to bring

Simone Collins: that up because that's so like, not, not my kink. That's like. Can you imagine? Oh but

Malcolm Collins: wait, this is your kink, the being paraded around. I love

Simone Collins: bad boys, but you should know that I am only a moderate bad. No, but like on dates, like when, when, when you're whining and dining a woman, you do the bad boy thing.

Malcolm Collins: No, I was, I was really quite callous with you in our early dates. I'm gonna be, yeah, it was hot. Was it was great. I freaking loved it. The first

Simone Collins: breaking rules, you know, we're breaking into like, yeah, well, no,

Malcolm Collins: I, well we broke rules and you thought I was just gonna use you as like, I knew you were

Simone Collins: gonna, that was your plan, Mel.

It was literally, it was

Malcolm Collins: actually my plan at the time, to be honest. I was like, I will marry a girl at Stanford and then this woman is basically does whatever I tell her to, and she seems moderately competent and she is completely devoted to me. So, I'll have my real wife and then I'll have my on the side, you know, which is

Simone Collins: why I wrote those letters to myself in the future.

I'm like. She wasn't wrong. This is clearly his plan. I wasn't wrong.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then I just realized that you were way more competent than any of the other people, right? Like you weren't just devoted to me. You were also competent.

Simone Collins: I was. I was. Yeah. And, and, yeah. I may, I may not have been an heiress, but So did I

Malcolm Collins: actually treat you like one of the, the, the, the, the like romcom, like hot guys?

Well, I don't really need,

Simone Collins: I'm, yeah. I mean, no, no. You had, you had all the, no, like literally you had all the things, right? You, like, you came from this cel illustrious family. You were like, you know, total disregard for the rules. You were sort of callous toward me, especially in the beginning. And people love that sort of like enemies to lovers trope.

Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was it was a very formulaically, like a addictively. Compelling. So thanks for that. That was a wild ride. And now we're living this like cottage core perfect married life, which is weird and unexpected after all that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, our married life is very like seen. It's like always, oh, look at the purple.

It's so wholesome, wholesome, wholesome. A wholesome maxing at this stage of life. But at that stage of life, I was, I was not reformed entirely.

Simone Collins: No. But, but a again, like, so, there definitely, where were we with this? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: No, but I was, I was gonna get, go to the next one. Right. Okay. So Uhhuh, so gaslighting, betrayal, and main character syndrome.

Once face switches her alliance to rice, sand, and the night court in book two, she returns to tamlin supreme court pretending to reconcile. Mm-hmm. But she's actually there to spy and sabotage him.

Yeah. She

lies to him in the court. She manipulates him emotionally. Mm-hmm. And she convinces others to turn against him, destabilizing the entire territory.

Yeah. With no real justification. He doesn't appear to have done anything particularly wrong. No. And, and she does all this while pretending to be the victim. Like her core reason for doing this is, well, IM it to the other guy, therefore I can betray anyone I want with no justification.

Simone Collins: Yeah, basically.

Yeah. I

Malcolm Collins: mean, why does she ever explain why she's doing all these horrible things to first guy?

Simone Collins: Well, because he was actually kind of a jerk, and he got really angry one time and his magic flew and a chair broke against a wall. And so, oh, no, that's the same. Probably violent. Yeah. Probably, probably. And he, at one point,

Malcolm Collins: progressive, it's like, well, he's probably violent

Simone Collins: in an attempt to get her back.

He like sold out to someone evil at some point. And that was considered super uncool, if I remember correctly. But no, it's, it's the, but that's, that's not even like, yeah, and it's, it's, it's not just that like this, this hiding of information is pervasive throughout, not just these romantic novels, but like through every.

Bestselling current romance novels. So like I went through with ai, like with perplexity deep research to go through the most popular romance novels in 2025 and the behavior of the female protagonists. And one of the number one recurring themes, the ones we've read,

Malcolm Collins: but we'll hear are the ones that you, you pulled up here.

Simone Collins: Well, and this, this shows up in those, though, this 100% shows up in the books that we're talking about, which is emotional guardedness and withholding truths, and like also using relationships for personal gain and survival, which it just seems like it's playing into the worst female tropes that men accuse women of.

And also women being like, oh, be more emotionally open for me, cry for me. You know, like, and, and, and then in, in these books, these women are not being emotionally open. They're not being emotionally or just technically honest. And they are extremely mercenary and selfish. And also they never, in any of the, none of these books, the contemporary romance, like the non fantasy stuff, the fantasy stuff, the historical stuff, like all the different versions, all the flavors.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: They never try to model these men. They never think, wow,

Malcolm Collins: I wonder how he's feeling. Right. So we'll go to the next book then. Yeah. Okay. I'll discuss with you. Okay. So what is the trial of the Sun Queen? This is, this is the next book that you have gone through that has I've, I've read the

Simone Collins: first two books in the series.

Malcolm Collins: This is so bad. Um, Now, now keep in mind Laura, our protagonist has spent 12 brutal years in prison by the oppressive Aurora King. I bet she gets the hots for him and sleeps with him. No, no, no.

Simone Collins: His son. His

Malcolm Collins: son. Oh, of course. She's abruptly pulled from solitary confinement and taken to the luxurious Sun Palace there.

She's forced to complete the deadly Queen's trials against non, yeah, this was described in the

Simone Collins: book summary as the Bachelorette meets the Hunger Games. And I'm like, SI,

you knew what you were in for.

You wanted to

Malcolm Collins: compete against other women. That's the thing. No, I

Simone Collins: love, well, I love, I want like the Hunger Games, but only the capital.

Like it was a little more of that, so that was helpful.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, but a lot of these have multiple women competing for a guy and the guy clearly choosing one of the women. This, this is another thing, right? Like in, in male books, in male fantasies. Very rarely do I want to be competing with other males.

Like I I, oh yeah, no, no,

Simone Collins: no. The Harem, harem anime is always only the women competing for the man. It's not

Malcolm Collins: like a woman's like, ah, well, you know, maybe this is like harem anime, but I win, right? Like, yeah. The

Simone Collins: female version of Harem trope is the love triangle, and I hate the love triangle. Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: I, I think the, the female version is this, it is 12 women fighting over one man.

But he really only likes you. It's, it's actually a harem as well. But he really only likes you. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. It's almost just like from a different perspective.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: So it's the harem. It's the harem Anime, but you are the fu. Yeah. They don't want a harem

Malcolm Collins: of men. What they want is to be in a harem, but be the real choice, but to

Simone Collins: be the, the, the final one.

True. And this is

Malcolm Collins: like, actually, like what gets me is women can choose any fantasy and they choose being in a harem over and over and over again. But to continue here, so the Sun King, like we're talking toxic behavior here, he dangles freedom in front of lore, but is manipulative and emotionally distant.

Mm-hmm. Lore falls for him quickly. Mm-hmm. Despite suspecting he's using her, the romance is shallow and built on power imbalance instead of genuine connection. Do you, do you agree with this?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Lord, it's led into illusions to test her loyalty. Lo what? Loyalty to somebody who she has been tortured by for 12 years.

Simone Collins: No, no, no. That's the aurora king. The Sun King is the one who's making her go through the trials. And this is his son? No, no, no, no, no, no. The son Nadir. So the son of the Aurora King who imprisoned her, his name is Nadir, and he's the second guy. He's the dark Oh antagonist. Who's the real pair bonded person for her?

The Aurora King is the, actually turned out to be a jerk boyfriend, number one, after, of course, many. Oh, what did he do

Malcolm Collins: to turn out to be a jo jerk? This one.

Simone Collins: In, in, in this series, the Aurora King turned out to be a jerk because he only wanted to marry the lore because it turns out that she's, she's actually like destined queen, powerful Faye of this realm.

And that's another thing about these, and I think it's really interesting, is that. The men find these women irresistible because for whatever reason they are super op. Like, either they're, they're like the secretly, like the destined this, or like the, the, in the lineage of queens, but new no one knew.

Or even in like historical fiction series that are a little bit older, like Outlander. The female protagonist has a huge leg up power-wise because she's a time traveler and she knows what's gonna happen. Historically speaking, plus has the knowledge of the future in like modern medicine. So I,

Malcolm Collins: I love, I love Outlander.

It's like modern woman goes to the past and sleeps around with lots of rugged guys from the medieval period.

Simone Collins: Well, married. So wait, was

Malcolm Collins: she married?

Simone Collins: She was married and then she went back in time. And. Married again, fell in love. Yeah. But

Malcolm Collins: she sleeps with a few people, right? If I remember correctly. I

Simone Collins: think so.

I, I couldn't, I, I have to stop reading all of these because like, they put me to sleep, but then I start hating the female protagonist so much that I just can't take it anymore. And then I have to switch to another one. So I, I think I'll go to the next one that you mentioned that was like, it sounded horrible and,

Malcolm Collins: okay, well, we'll go to the, the, yeah.

But anyway.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like she, yeah, he's, he is, he is he's a jerk because he, he just wants to use her for her power. But the important theme here is that in, in most of these, the female protagonist is, is, is extremely valuable and irresistible because of her power. And I think there's this other thing that women want to feel like they are inherently so indispensable and important.

Because there's this desire to be that. And, and women right now aren't like, I, I think that's something that women really miss is this feeling that they are actually needed.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and. They also want justification for betraying everyone in their lives. You know, like that's the also the, I just want a man I can betray everyone for.

That is really the, a, a recurring theme in these, another interesting one in, in this one, the, the sun, whatever one is Laura the main character learns this about herself. Like she learns that she is the destined whatever.

Mm-hmm. And she

hides it from everyone, despite it, putting multiple people's lives at risk to be hiding it.

It's not like, oh,

Simone Collins: and despite the fact that she'd be able to solve her problems much more easily if she was just transparent about what's going on which makes the books almost unreadable at, at various points. Like the, the, the second person that, that she like is technically really bonded to resand.

Like she just starts being extremely like horrible to him. Like just as they start. Beginning to forge some intimacy that they both really enjoy this torch tells her that if they do get together, it will only leave to heartbreak and ruin. And then she just did. Then she like comes back from this like prophetic vision and she's just like, no, we're not doing this anymore.

Like, she doesn't tell him anything of like, by the way, I received a prophecy from this magical object that belongs to your kingdom that you would totally respect and, and like, take seriously that we need to be kind of careful. No, I'm just gonna be a complete jerk to you and be be like, no, we can't do this anymore.

We're not doing it. And like, no, no explanation. It would be so much easier for everyone involved if you were just like, Hey, this magical object that you respect and that I respect and that gives meaningful prophecies told me to watch out about this and you should watch. Like why, why can't, and like I thought women were the ones who communicated.

I thought that. Well, you know

Malcolm Collins: what's funny with all of this is, you say all of this and I can I, I'm like, I just really want to like, slap this woman just, just punch her in the face over and over again. And I'm like, you know what's really cool is with AI I can experience that, I can, I can put in make, make the other character that makes her, but there's no

Simone Collins: slapping sense into her.

Like she's just so irredeemable. And that's what's so horrible. And then the problem is that like the world needs her. 'cause like, it's the, she, she's gonna fix everything with her. Immense power that is greater than anyone's power ever before because she's the heart queen. Really? She has

Malcolm Collins: the most part.

Is she the heart queen? She's the heart queen. But she's kind of slutty though, right? As well. So she's like,

Simone Collins: she's the highest body count of any female protagonist that I've read in a romance novel.

Malcolm Collins: Really? Well, but what, what? Well, because

Simone Collins: when she was in prison, she. Used sex to get by, like sexual favors with prison cards and stuff.

But then also had a lot of sex with other inmates because it's how she like reclaimed her sexuality. So like, I mean, they put it in, like they couch it in like, well, she had no choice. But I think they're trying, that doesn't

Malcolm Collins: sound like no choice. That sounds like sexual rub springing and the worst kind of slut.

Simone Collins: I know the, the first, the book starts with her actually having like a, a full out brawl with another female inmate who calls her a slut because she has a reputation for being a slut. So she well, and I

Malcolm Collins: guess women these days read that and they're like, wow, I really see myself in this individual.

'cause she,

Simone Collins: she also like, yeah, the, the, the, the female inmate who insulted her also stole soap from her that she had performed, that Laura had performed a sexual favor to get, so she was willing to perform sexual favors to get soap. Like it wasn't, I mean, the soap was meaningful to her 'cause, you know, jail sucks or whatever, but like.

But I think this is, again, I think because we're, we're seeing this is not, this is, this is the protagonist. Yes. We're seeing a change in what the average female romance novel reader is. This is now a woman with a higher body count, but who wants to see that higher body count is like, not her fault, but rather a product of, of the situation in which she found herself.

She had to have all that sex just to get by. It's society's fault. Yeah. She was, she was the prisoner, just like Lauren was in our modern society of Tinder, where you have to be slutty to get by. That's so true. And so this, like, I think the novels are trying to, like all of these, to me, are proxies for what women are experiencing and they're, they're meant to help them try to cope with their own.

Sexual pasts, which they're struggling with. And also this, the, and they're, they're feeding them. False Hope King will falling in love, but still, like the

Malcolm Collins: Dark Prince will still like them even though they've slept with a lot of people. Yes. Do they like never come up? Does like the Dark Prince like, never be like, but you, you be kind of slutty in the past?

Simone Collins: Well, no, because they, they frame it very differently. Like Nadir, who's like, her real person is like, first off, she doesn't have penetrative sex with either of these two men in, in any of the two books.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: So I think they're trying to like, sort of alize these women.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: And then second he's like, well, she's never really had sex before because it's never been.

Real, it's never been real like with a man who knows what to do. And I think that's also kind of a story that can be sold well to the modern woman of like, you haven't really had sex because all these men, I don't really a

Malcolm Collins: virgin, come on. The guys, they don't

Simone Collins: really know what they're doing. They don't really care about you.

They're just, they're fiddling around in the dark. And, and. They also make like the, the, I think one of the things that's like showing up consistently in fa lore is that like, these men are also very slutty and it's an extremely slutty face society where like there's just orgies all the time. And like they've all had like tons of different partners.

And like in, in the first like in the trial of the Sun King, the Sun King is like constantly sleeping around with women. Like during all this whole process. Like maybe he, like, you know, he, he's all about lore and like wants lore for his wife because he needs her power, but he's still sleeping around with other women.

Malcolm Collins: Been in female romance fantasies. This isn't seen in the turnoff. They like,

Simone Collins: no, no, no. If anything it's like a validator. And keep in mind in in the court of tho of the, of the court of thorns and roses, the the, the dark man re, re-sand is, is sleeping with the evil queen. He's sleeping with like the big, bad, very actively it's very well known. Like he even has to like, deal with the reputation of being like her pet after she's been defeated. Everyone's like, oh, you're, you're her b***h. You know? So like, yeah. The men are also slutty, which I think also is, is they're trying to say that it's okay because I think also most of the men that women are encountering on Tinder, because they're only encountering the eights, nines, and tens who actually get any action on Twitter are also very slutty.

Like they're sleeping around a lot.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I love this. And what I need to ask our audience is this is why you gotta join Patreon. So you can vote to force Simone to read more books like this. And we can, we can get her to do review. Well, we have to e

Simone Collins: It's either that or I was going to create.

Sorry,

Malcolm Collins: I need to say for Simone to read these books,

Simone Collins: but it's not hot for men. That's hot for women, Malcolm. But you're not a man or I was surprise, surprise. Or I was gonna create an OnlyFans account to see if there actually is an ecosystem of men who successfully sell to women on OnlyFans. And if so, what are they selling?

Because I don't think, I don't think they're like helicoptering their wee wes, if you know what I mean. Like, I don't think that's what it is.

Malcolm Collins: I think that this is gonna be more interesting to people.

Simone Collins: OnlyFans are novels, the fantasy novels. We'll see, we'll see. But what I just wanna point out though, as a warning to men, because these men are the words, no, no, no.

Like the, the top toxic female behaviors that are being normalized in these, in these novels, which I think if you get in a relationship with a woman, you need to train out immediately. And Malcolm did this like early in our relationship when he saw stuff that was like. Proto any of these things, or proto abusive as he would describe it, like this is gonna lead to toxic dynamics.

It just like snowballed later in the relationship. He's immediately like, we're talking about this. We're not doing this anymore. Here's what we're gonna do instead. Here's why this is not okay. You

Malcolm Collins: got really upset about like how stern I was about this.

Simone Collins: Well, it's frustrating in the beginning, but it's because I didn't know how toxic these things were.

And you explained it to me. And the reason why I did these things to a great extent was because I saw that modeled as normal behavior and why I wanna highlight these things like you up in the middle of the

Malcolm Collins: call or something. That was one of the big ones where you would like Yeah, did that once and it you never did it again after.

I was like, you never ever, but there were, there

Simone Collins: were other things too, like, not standing up for you when other people were dog piling you in social situations. That's

Malcolm Collins: takes so long to get over though. I know. It

Simone Collins: was really, but like, these are things like. Because I saw them normalized in mainstream society.

It was really hard for like, not intuitive, for for me to not do that. And I wanna highlight the following things to our male watchers because women are likely to do these things, especially if they have encountered any of these novels. Because this is pervasive, I'm saying it across all genres of romance and romance adjacent novels.

You need to immediately flag these things and explain how this is gonna snowball into toxic behavior that hurts both of you. So one is obviously emotional guardedness and withholding truth that is pervasive in these. Oh, I'm not gonna tell you about the prophecy. I'm not gonna tell you who I really am.

Like, it's just seen as like, I don't know, power. Then there's also using relationships for personal gain and, and survival. In fact, there's also this trend in these books where like the women, the men in these books financially support the families of these women, like their parents and their sisters.

Which is, I don't know, like whenever I hear about men paying for their wives, families, I just feel like those wives are such lees, so like I, that's weird. I

Malcolm Collins: agree. The family should be left to starve to death. You don't need to pay for a whole, that's our culture though. Obviously if you're in some like Asian culture, you gotta, you know, you don't get to send a letter to the parents being like like the Canadian government.

Have you thought about offering yourself?

Simone Collins: Yeah. And then there's some emotional withdrawal and cotton hold, hot and cold behavior where women just like give the cold shoulder, they won't talk to their partners and like, that's also super toxic, but super normal. I think you tried

Malcolm Collins: that once and I was like, never again.

Simone Collins: I don't, I mean, probably early I did. Yeah. And then that

Malcolm Collins: one you learned really quickly not to do.

Simone Collins: There's a huge enemies or rivals to lovers trope where women are just like extremely mean to the male. Love, interest and like, I hate you, or, and they're just like, they just constantly bully and neg and.

Like one men really don't like that. So if you're a woman listening to this who's in the dating market, like, don't, don't do that. Like

Malcolm Collins: respect No. Cold shoulders is not something you do in a real healthy relationship. Nobody. Yeah. And what's

Simone Collins: super attractive to men is like interest in them, interest in their interests and like enthusiasm for the stuff that they do.

Like, and, but

Malcolm Collins: Cold Shoulder is the beginning of like a protracted fight. Like there is no, nothing good comes from a culture. Well, and see,

Simone Collins: but like judgment, criticism, and rivalry, which is more like what this is. You're

Malcolm Collins: not being like a, a guy is actually a good match for you. He's not being mean to you because he wants to be mean to you.

Like if you have some difference of opinion, it's a difference of opinion. You need to work out.

Mm-hmm.

Doing the cold shoulder is trying to leverage access to yourself as a, as a, a value in a fight. Mm-hmm. Which then just forces him to do the same to himself, which then begins the destruction of the relationship.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And then of course there's this like. Love triangle, emotional rebound, serial monogamy thing. And maybe, you know, women have had previous partners, but like Simone, they're just not mated with each other. Let it go. Maybe more mated. Yeah. But like, Hmm. I, I just, I mean, I don't know, like I don't think that partners need to speak a whole lot about their previous No, I'm telling you this

Malcolm Collins: whole M thing is just like, well, I want a story where we can have this fantasy where women are like involuntarily attracted to like dominant men and then want to sleep with them and be there partners forever and have their kids.

Yeah. Like I want, I want a fantasy where women in some like kinky way are like weird and deviant, not like normal women and want those things.

Simone Collins: I wonder if it would be productive for men, like when they saw their wives reading a book. To go to GR or Claude or OpenAI, perplexity, ask for a summary and just like, what?

Like let's, and then let's just talk through

Malcolm Collins: this book. No, hold on. And I look, you guys can look at the, I let my wife listen to these, right? Like, I'm not here being like, how dare you

listen to woman porn where it puts me to I

Simone Collins: need something. No, of course, course. That's why you're listening, Simone. I'm not listening to that now. Right now I'm listening to three

Malcolm Collins: books in one series and two books in another just to go to bed. I couldn't,

Simone Collins: I couldn't finish them because they're so bad. Now I'm listening to, and it's really good.

Listen to three books, all systems Read by Martha Wells. It's like, it's super cute. It's about this murder bot. Who is hacked His governance system, meaning he or she, they, it has autonomy. And you can tell it's like a sci-fi book written by a woman. Isn't

Malcolm Collins: it a sexy murder box? No,

Simone Collins: it's not. He doesn't have parts.

So he is like a male Barbie doll.

Malcolm Collins: Won. You told me it's not.

Simone Collins: No, it's not sexy. It's not a sexy book. And you can tell it's written by a woman because it's all about how like emotionally awkward he feels around humans. It's great. Highly recommend it. What, what do you mean by a woman?

Malcolm Collins: You mean by an artist?

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: guess, you know, women don't feel emotionally uncomfortable around humans. I don't know if you knew this or not. That's a you thing.

Simone Collins: Okay. It's really relatable. It's so relatable. Like, because the humans are starting to realize that, that the murder bot actually has feelings and human parts that cause it to have feelings.

And they're like, oh, like don't upset it. And then it's like, like gets even more like. It's cute. Highly recommend it all. Systems wrap. You

Malcolm Collins: are adorable. I like you. I I, I, even though you watch these pervy pervy books, I still think that you are the best wife ever. And I, I bet you can create some great title cards for this.

Like, what are women watching? Like the debauchery of women of this generation or mated for life, female deba. And then do, do like arrows to the book covers. You know, why do,

Simone Collins: yeah, I don't know. I have to do like pictures of. A sexy women choosing between fairy men. I don't know, fairy men,

Malcolm Collins: like one Fairman,

Simone Collins: or wait, like the first fairy man is a wolf man?

No. You know, he's a fairy, but he is a wolf man. Because we gotta just, this is what you need to have, hack it in.

Malcolm Collins: You have an anime version of yourself, and then two different fairy versions of me,

Simone Collins: and then animated version of yourself being like, which fairy man do I like?

Oh my God. No, actually I just realized, you know, how like with a lot of drawn erotic material for men, like you end up seeing like, because they're trying to, because they're very niche, but they're trying to get as many audiences as possible.

It's like, well, it's. It's vor plus furry plus like bimbo. Ation. They like throw in a bunch of different kinks. Yeah. And like they totally do that in this too. It's like, well, he's a fairy, but he also turns into a wolf, so don't worry. And he's also really old, so don't worry. Oh, rich, I read

Malcolm Collins: the, the, the, the thorns one had like scenting and everything and like biological like, oh, I can smell his, you know, you're

Simone Collins: right.

No, yeah, you're right. But that was with the first one. It was with the, you didn't realize that was a kink when you read that. You were like, this is normal

Malcolm Collins: female kinks. I swear women will look at men and be like. This guy choke the girl

Simone Collins: You, you de, which I, by the way, will point

Malcolm Collins: out that women prefer more than men.

The statistics are really killer, but they'll be like the, I saw a porn where a man choked a woman, and then I'm like, I saw YA, a bucket bar and no bolts, where like a, a man beats a woman and forces her to dress scantily under drugs in front of other men. And she thinks he's the greatest thing ever. And he's the good guy.

Simone Collins: And he's like the nice one.

He's the

Malcolm Collins: nice one. And it's the bestseller. And by

Simone Collins: the way, you are

Malcolm Collins: reading it and you gave it to your preteen daughter, and then they're like, well, that's all normal. No. The funny thing is, I, I read

Simone Collins: this book and I thought that it was like really niche and embarrassing. And then we went somewhere and someone else who's very intelligent and successful was reading it.

And I was like, oh damn. Wait,

Malcolm Collins: is this one

Simone Collins: of the people

Malcolm Collins: we can't talk about? Or is this like a,

Simone Collins: it's someone. Who sometimes listens to this podcast and I wouldn't name.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, okay. Okay.

Simone Collins: I can tell you after

Malcolm Collins: that is hilarious. But also I

Simone Collins: was glad because then I could talk to someone about it. But like, no, this is like, this is read not just by like poorly educated, trashy women who shop at Target, which is where we were looking at these book covers this morning.

But like. Very successful, highly educated, like top tier of society women. Well, I know,

Malcolm Collins: and this is the thing also about male porn. So I had a an episode where I joke about like the time I accidentally leaked hint eye on, on a, on the show. When did you do

Simone Collins: that?

Malcolm Collins: It was I, I, I put images of that, that one that I shared with you that's like super wholesome.

Oh, the guru one? No, it's like my child friend. It's broken. I think it's technically

Simone Collins: it 10

Malcolm Collins: times. It's about like, well it's, but it's like a, a a, a a Yankee girl who, whatever, no,

Simone Collins: ARU, a guru

Malcolm Collins: Yalu where she's got all the paint, everything on her face and everything. And then she dates a guy and slowly becomes like a normal wife and has kids and, and, and gets over all of her past daughter.

Yeah. How can

Simone Collins: you call that hentai when like, the vast majority of it is exposition of this, like this sweet child romance. So it's

Malcolm Collins: exposition and then they have a few nude scenes at the end if you wanna read past the, the, the exposition part. Yeah. I'm

Simone Collins: like, I, I don't think I ever got to that. No, I.

Malcolm Collins: On the on the discord about this, a bunch of people were like, oh, I've read that one.

So like, this isn't like, it's a niche thing that I'm mentioning here. This is like a bunch of men who are, are like, oh yeah, that fantasy about helping a girl get through her traumas and then she becomes your wife and you have kids together. Mm-hmm. And you're just there to support her. Yeah, that's a fantasy that I've seen in my, in my reading.

Simone Collins: Well, and that's another, recently there's been all this criticism of the anime movie that came out where like, a young man helps a girl in a wheelchair and people are like, how dare you? How dare

Malcolm Collins: you. Yeah. Help

Simone Collins: a woman in a wheelchair.

Malcolm Collins: And,

Simone Collins: and she, like, there's this male fantasy of like, well,

helping a woman who actually needs your help and like, making her life good and appreciates you.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh. And that's again like what are men into, oh, they just want, like women who appreciate them, they want, that's disgusting, eager, enthusiastic. Sexual partners

appreciate the man.

Malcolm Collins: Do you know what that means? That means a woman doing something. Yeah. That's almost as bad as Starship Trooper. I love they call it fa like, like fascist.

Even though it's like gay. Totally equal gay. Totally. Gender equal. The only thing that that makes it gay. That

Simone Collins: makes

Malcolm Collins: it

Simone Collins: gay. That's that's what, that's

Malcolm Collins: it. It is, it is space. Gay fascism. But I'm actually

Simone Collins: realizing, so like the way that the, the female protagonists are in these, which is because women seem to be so into this Enemies to lovers thing, or rivals to lovers thing is they're like, I hate you, you're my enemy.

And like the men in these are framed as like liking it. Like especially Nadir in the sun King trial of the Sun King series. Just loves when she hates him and, and talks about how much she, like when she looks at him angrily, he like that turns him on. Whereas like in reality, and this is really giving women this skewed perception of male sexuality, that like men are turned on by them expressing.

Disdain, hatred, rivalry when like really what turns men on is eagerness and gratefulness and gratitude and enthusiasm. Well, hold on.

Malcolm Collins: I think what you're missing here is sexually successful versus sexually unsuccessful men. Sexually unsuccessful men are turned on by those things.

Simone Collins: Uhhuh.

Malcolm Collins: Sexually successful men are turned on by women who hate them and stuff like that.

Oh,

Simone Collins: well, since these are all powerful mans slots, then I guess that that would work for them. Okay. So that's not discord. As I point

Malcolm Collins: out, like if you have a more aggressive form of sexuality, you actually perform really well with an arbitrage ma markets because so few men do. And so many women want this.

Yeah. Clearly I all think people are like trauma. It's like, no, it's not trauma. Sweet. And, and we say this as people who both have, you know, somewhat unusual sexual profiles. And I can be like, I definitely didn't undergo any trauma in, in, in that respect. And you definitely didn't either.

Simone Collins: Zero trauma.

Zero trauma.

Malcolm Collins: Well, because people just don't wanna admit that humans are weird. Right? Like humans are weird.

Simone Collins: Well, I, I just, I can't believe that our audience would ever use the T word to explain anything when the T word is indicative of an external locus of control, which is the weakest way to approach life, even if it's true, that's some external force caused something bad to happen to you.

Admitting that or acting as though that's the case is the weakest and least healthy way to approach it. You can logically understand that that's how it worked, but like everything ultimately comes down to what are you gonna do about it? And if you don't make everything your personal responsibility, life will keep happening to you and you are going to flounder, you are going to fail.

An internal locus of control is only the only way to move forward. Well, I mean, I think, and if you ever accept trauma into your life, that is accepting an external locus of control.

Malcolm Collins: The I, no, I think the people who do this are, are genuinely like no kids, losers, like, no, I'm being honest. Like, they're not gonna be represented in the next generation.

I've seen the people who do this, who are like, oh, it's all, look, this is like your, your Nick Fuentes and stuff like that, right? Like they, they, they put on this big show of being like a conservative Christian, and yet they can't even get a wife. Right? Like you're

the Thrive. Yeah.

With a lot of this, it's this big show, oh, I'm so tough.

Oh, I'm so whatever. And it's like, and either my wife hates me or I don't have one. Right. Like, because there's, there's obviously gonna be a lack of communication if you go with this whole deontological, like, I'm so, you know, it ends up failing and blowing up in your face. And it's, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't.

Simone Collins: Drop the trauma narrative, guys. Yeah. The trauma

Malcolm Collins: narrative is pathetic. Right. Like, just be like, Hey, what turns me on is what turns me on. I don't need to do it. Yeah. Right. Like that, that is the actual answer. Yeah. What turns you on is what turns you on. And that doesn't,

Simone Collins: that this is not to neutralize that bad things happen to you and that bad things happen in the world, and it's sometimes, and that life is, life is deeply unfair.

Absolutely. And things happen to you through no fault of your own, but that doesn't matter in the end. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what are you gonna do about it? So

Malcolm Collins: yes. F**k up. And, and, and, and, and I think that also it's, it's such like a cooked response to be like, well, you just, if you were traumatized and you just have to do all these horrible debauch things, it's like, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Or you can just be like, Hey, it's fricking random. What turns you on? Well, not exactly random, but largely speaking, largely

Simone Collins: genetic. I mean, honestly, a lot of it's just inherited. So,

Malcolm Collins: and they would just call

Simone Collins: that intergenerational trauma,

Malcolm Collins: right? They're like, what So weird that my dad was in, and I was, and I was like, that's not weird.

It's not weird. It's called genetics.

Yeah.

Anyway, love you to DeSimone. Love you too. You are amazing. And thank you so much for this amazing stupidly long episode.

Simone Collins: Sorry,. I love talking with you. You're the best. So with the,

Malcolm Collins: the episode today, the, the one on the, the women and what turns them on very apt.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And the only comments where I'm like, why are so many people under this impression was a bunch of people are like, oh, women are just into BDSM because of childhood trauma. And I'm like, Hmm. And a lot of people are like, well, don't you know that sexuality is just downstream of early porn exposure or early childhood trauma?

And I'm like, do you not have any understanding of the evidence on this stuff? Well, and on two separate comments that I saw, 'cause I read all the way to the bottom, tried to respond to as many as I had time to. We're like, well, the research shows that. This is all downstream of childhood, by the way, you show me the research.

Yeah. We extensively looked at this like

Malcolm Collins: extremist religious people in the eighties made this up. But if you actually look at the research, for example, the, the sooner you engage, if, if you look at like prisons for example the people who are ISTs or essays often started to engage with porn at a much later date.

They often engage with porn less than the people who aren't. You see a direct correlation like the, this, this is actually like the directly wrong. And, and we,

Simone Collins: we came into doing this research. Thinking what all these other people thought, because it's what society tells you. It's like, oh, this is all downstream.

Well, no, it's, what society

Malcolm Collins: tells you is better than that. It's what you believe is intuitively true, but society says you're not allowed to say you're not allowed to say, actually, this stuff is really bad for you. And I had actually written the chapter that it was really bad for you. And then it's like, I'll find citations later.

And it was the one chapter I had to rewrite. No,

Simone Collins: that, that, that porn is really bad for you. Yeah. But also when you did the, the survey that you did and then looked at the research on this because you, you assumed that abuse as a kid or, you know, or, or brought intimate abuse as a kid would correlate with different types of kinks in the future.

Did not. Yeah. Like there were some very loose things, I think more related to like how you practiced rather than like what you actually got turned on by. So there were like some isolated incidents,

Malcolm Collins: you know, it may make you more you know, sexually like voracious or interested in that sort of stuff. Uhhuh like willing to

Simone Collins: express it?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like just sluttier basically is the word I use. But it didn't correlate to arousal patterns. And certainly not. Yeah. Like you're just with

Simone Collins: that. Yeah. And just like the number of people who chimed into the comments and were like, this is downstream of trauma, this is downstream of early poor exposure.

And I'm just like.

Malcolm Collins: I love this like

Simone Collins: trauma

Malcolm Collins: brain

Simone Collins: that people

Malcolm Collins: get, you know, we, well, and

Simone Collins: like you'd think that our audience is above that. Like we're all about, like therapy culture is obviously toxic. This whole like, it was your mom's fault, it was child trauma fault, it was Dutch. No. Like we all agree that this is, that this is toxic, that this is delusional.

And yet, as soon as we bring sex into it, they're like, well, no. And this is like a basic

Malcolm Collins: red pill fact that like every red pillar knows everyone who's engaged in evolutionary psychology is like not surprised. And there were definitely people

Simone Collins: who come into God that they're like, well evolutionarily it makes sense because like, yes.

Thank you. Thank you for those of you who freaking get it, who, who use their noggins for once instead of, sorry for this. Well, I love that they're, they

Malcolm Collins: just uncritically and without knowledge are like aggressively pushing this particular viewpoint.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, again, it's not one that I can hate on because it's one that I used to have before.

Yeah. Until we actually looked at the information.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. We were surprised. We're like, well of course. No, FP is good and porn is bad. Well, I have to rewrite

Malcolm Collins: the entire, because is that not norm, like the norm of this channel? Like, oh, well here's the thing that you're not allowed to say and everybody normalizes.

Mm-hmm. But it's bad. And we've written a whole chapter about this and then I looked at the data and I was like, I've, I guess this is the, and I have never done that. I have never I often write chapters of books and then later look for data. 'cause I'm like, I bet I can find a study that's, I bet I can find it.

This was the one where I did this. And, and just from like intuition and memory, because I had remembered people citing a bunch of studies that showed this. Yes. Yes. And where are these studies? Where are these studies? You know, it's not that no studies exist, you will always find studies arguing for, for any particular thing.

Sure. It's just that they do not appear as well constructed as the studies on the other side. And they appear. And it's, you can be like, well, you know, well, don't you discount studies that push what the, the left would want or what the urban monoculture would want? And it's like even wizz doing that, the preponderance of evidence is on the because there's also people on the other side of this who have like an opposite agenda, right?

And so the question is, is which agenda gets violated more by their own studies? And, and when I look at the wider data pools and when I look at like evolutionary psychology and try to use common sense but that's disappointing. Oh, well, nobody was complaining about my Iran comments.

Simone Collins: Oh I mean, some people not really.

Not, not really.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Not, not about my, my Carl Benjamin comments.

Simone Collins: I can't remember.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Well,

Malcolm Collins: a bunch of people came in to hate on Sargon of a cod Carl Benjamin. Yeah. They hated him too.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. So people did, yeah, there were a couple. Yeah. What

Malcolm Collins: did they not like about him?

Simone Collins: He's an intellectual lightweight. He, he's, he's doomed to, you know, he thinks he. Knows the answers, but is sort of doomed by his culture and perspectives to, you know, never really come to a conclusion. Is his Britishness, is his undoing his

Malcolm Collins: I agree with that to an extent. I like, I do not like that he doesn't, he does not come down with like hard and interesting takes.

And I think he used to, or like I have a perception I, in my head, he was a cooler figure the way the left told me about him. Mm. Before I realized that the big scary sargon of a cod was the guy who hosts Lotus Eaters. And I'm like, but he is very tame. Why? Why is he the big scar, sir? I think he just came to, to fame during a period where saying less controversial stuff got you in more trouble.

And so he developed this one

Simone Collins: person said something like that, like, you know, because he was so good at Trouncing, like wokeness, you know, he just thinks he is therefore good at a bunch of other things. When.

Malcolm Collins: Well, especially in the early days of wokeness, when that was really, you know, risky for Yeah. And it took balls to Monet against that.

He did. Yeah. You know, so, so, you know, he did, he did do a lot of opening salvos. He just wasn't as useful in later salvos and, and, and I'm, I'm not to say that I, I wouldn't expect him to start doing more interesting stuff again. I, I, I, I might, you know, but I will say his perception is very British conservative when we talk with other British conservatives

Simone Collins: which I don't know, I'd summarize in one word, defeatist

Malcolm Collins: di defeatist and prudish.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Oh and Pearl Clutchy often. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. Yeah.

Simone Collins: I'm just horrified that he's the bottleneck in his family to having another kid. He's like, no, we're not having, telling

Malcolm Collins: his wife, like, we're not having any more kids. Yeah. Like, what More is enough?

Simone Collins: Come on, man. Like, after four economies of scale kick in, you're, you're missing the benefits anyway.

Malcolm Collins: And I mean, I'm, I'm even the one who raises the kids probably more than he does. And I'm like, well, and yeah. And his

Simone Collins: wife is doing the raising. She's a stay at home mom. So like it's on her anyway. Like what's it on him? I guess he doesn't wanna pay for one more mouth to feed. But again, the economy's like the financial economy.

You don't need to feed them all.

That's the trick. You can put some on the streets to, to, to pickpocket from strangers,

considering that one of our kids basically only eats berries foraged from our yard. Yeah. We're basically only paying now to feed. Yeah. Right. Okay. Three miles and not four. Yeah.

Speaker: Here what I need to pick some of, whoa, here

Speaker 2: I made.

Speaker 3: I think it's,

Speaker 4: oh my God.

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