We trace the history of furries and anthropomorphized animal costumes back to ancient traditions around the world. How furries connect to traditional masquerade parties, shapeshifting rituals, Egyptian & Native American animal gods. We discuss reasons why modern cultures denigrate furries despite their traditional roots and productive members. Covered topics include the psychology of hunting zoophilic furries, Trump's thing for Ivanka, Biden's hair sniffing fetish, and whether squirrel tails and fox ears make your partner more attractive.

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] But yes, I do think if you, if you, if you woke up one day. And you had cute fox or dog ears, it would probably make you, which I don't know how this is possible because you become more attractive every day, but it would make you even a little bit more attractive.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my gosh, now this is spicy, this is

Simone Collins: I don't see how this is spicy.

I feel like if, listen, if like Joe Biden. Suddenly had like white fox ears, you know, like I think that he like he would go up in the polls. I

Malcolm Collins: think that Joe Biden shows his fetish very loudly.

Simone Collins: He like sniffs people's hair,

Malcolm Collins: people's hair.

He seems really into it. if they had grown up within our generation, they'd accept it, they'd know. Don't sniff women's hair publicly. That's a bad thing to go around sniffing people's hair in public. This is something you can go to a special hair sniffing club for.

Simone Collins: A hair sniffing orgy.

We all have a desire to be known, and he's constantly [00:01:00] sniffing hair in public, it's not some big secret.

Malcolm Collins: But we were saying what's also really funny about, like, what people think is trad and what people don't think is trad.

Furries are super trad. Yeah. Like, they are far They're more trad than the nuclear family. What does trad even mean? Like if you're trying to be trad, but you say furries aren't trad or not the type of trad you wanna be.

Huh? What's causing this differentiation? Like, what is trad actually, if not furries? Because I don't think that that's what people mean. Like the way people use trad today, let's be honest,

Simone Collins: is not actually traditional. take the word trad, disassociate it from the concept of traditional or history or historical accuracy and just make it a genre, like anime or like DC comics, right?

Malcolm Collins: I actually think trying to cosplay like a 1950s wholesome family is one of the few cultural contexts we have for what it looks like to be in a happy relationship with happy kids. And so [00:02:00] if you're trying to figure out or trying to search for how do I build that for myself?

Cosplaying that and cosplaying creates the thing you're cosplaying

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: I'm here. You don't want to be a pilot.

Malcolm Collins: What? Oh yeah. We had US Air Force recruiting call me.

Simone Collins: You know, when I took a job test, you know, there's like job tests you fill out.

There were, there were two jobs. It was like, it's, this is very clear. You just need to take one of these or else you'll be miserable in life. Either join the military or become a librarian. That is like, you just like, you can only live with extreme structure. I'm sorry. And of course I do the complete opposite, but, but also because I think what they miss and what these, these career tests miss, especially with autists is autists don't necessarily want somebody.

Else's structure. They want their own structure. Yeah. So it's better to be an entrepreneur, even if like everything is completely like Calvin Ball. Make up your own rules. Nothing is certain, at least you get to dictate everything yourself. And I, I, I always, I die in systems where I have to [00:03:00] live by other people's rules.

It's, I agree with that. I probably would. But what I want to ask you, Mr. Is if you were a furry, what would your fursona look like?

Malcolm Collins: I actually think that this is a better question for somebody else to answer about me. You, you, what would you want my fursona to be?

Simone Collins: I feel like you'd probably be a fox because you're very fiery and clever.

Um, and like, you're very loyal and caring.

So you're kind of dog like, but you're not obedient. So I couldn't classify you as dog. You know what I mean? What about

Malcolm Collins: a raccoon?

Simone Collins: Yeah, you're totally a raccoon. Oh my God. And like, you also do this thing that I call raccooning. So Malcolm, just for your edification he like his brain turns off when he has things in his hands or even like, like a wedding ring on his hand.

And like when he just. Gets [00:04:00] in certain modes, like he's eating or he gets into a car or he gets home. Like he started, he had his brain turns off and he starts raccooning or just like stuff just gets shoved in places. And like, you never know where it's going to go. If he's at a restaurant, it's like somehow under a plate.

And then we've lost so many of his wedding rings because of this. He just, he has, he can't have it on this.

Malcolm Collins: You know, I just have this generic, like 5

Simone Collins: wedding ring, 11, 11. Come on. We're not here. It's your wedding ring. But yeah, we have like basically all over the house. Like I have hanging on little hooks. I have in my purse, I have in my makeup bag.

I have in my, like,

Malcolm Collins: I love your thing about like, I'm like Sonic. Whenever I hit something, just rings explode everywhere.

Simone Collins: But yeah, you're totally raccoon. That is, that is your fursona. What about you? A squirrel? Yeah, probably

Malcolm Collins: a squirrel. No, you're more deliberate than that.

Simone Collins: Squirrels are very deliberate.

They're always like No, ew. No, I'm definitely because squirrels like to squirrel things away and like hide things and they act [00:05:00] like they're really busy but they're really just shuffling stuff around. But you

Malcolm Collins: also like shiny things. I think another raccoon here.

Simone Collins: Maybe, yeah, maybe we're a bunch of

Malcolm Collins: raccoons.

We're a little raccoon family,

little dirt pandas, little trash pandas that hang out in, but hold on. And you like breaking

Simone Collins: rules and I like well, you know what the raccoons would do when they would break into my childhood house? Is they would, they would take our cat's food and then they would wash it before eating it.

Like they dip it in water and then they eat it. And then one they're so smart and they're so big on collecting. So I guess this would be

Malcolm Collins: me like hygiene too. They like washing things.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They're big on hygiene. So that would be me. And then what we found one day when we like came up in the middle of the night and we could hear them, like they'd bust into our house through the cat door, which was one of those magnetic key cat doors.

So like it should not have. But they, they picked the lock. They're just very smart is they had not just eaten all the cat food. They'd found the cat food bag and we found one raccoon on the outside of the cat door pulling the bag. And we found the other raccoon on the inside, pushing the bag, trying to get it out.

And of course that was some [00:06:00] dangerous situation because in that case we had a raccoon trapped in our house on the other side of the cat food bag. But these are, yeah. Okay. Our personas are raccoons. It's

Malcolm Collins: before we go further on this, I need to. I was recently watching because I was like, I got to recommend this anime and I have forgotten to recommend this anime before.

Spice and Wolf. But that's not

Simone Collins: about furries. It's about a fox

Malcolm Collins: girl. No, no, no. But I was thinking, because you were asking me and I was asking you, what fursona would you be?

My last girlfriend. Well, not my last, but my other really serious girlfriend, who, you know, she was in our wedding party. I don't want to

Simone Collins: name names here.

The beautiful one. Yes. Well, they were all beautiful, but the extra, the most beautiful one.

Malcolm Collins: She looked and acted exactly like the female protagonist from this anime. Oh, really? Very much wolf energy, I guess you would say.

So, yeah. Just so you know, the anime, if you do want to watch it, it's about economic games.

So, like, when people, when there's conflict in the show, it's over something like some sort of economic battle, you know, like in Naruto, they would have like actual, but if it takes place in [00:07:00] medieval Europe, basically, so medieval Europe, economic battles with a spicy wolf girl, if you're interested in that spice and wolf, check it out.

Very, very top tier anime, very educational too. So, you know, what's the topic of this video? Right? Because recently, you know, we've done some things where we point out that what people can, and we have a video on this, what people. think of as a trad wife is a progressive conspiracy in that it was really something created by Hollywood in the 1950s that was never really lived by that many people.

A lifestyle lived by that many people, right? And among the people who were living it, it was a fairly new lifestyle that had really only begun to be experimented with in the 1910s to 1920s and right now it's almost a completely dead lifestyle.

Simone Collins: Well, people pretend it isn't, but it's, it is not sustainable even when they pretend.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, it's economically unfeasible for 90 percent of the population. Yeah, unless

Simone Collins: you're super rich, then you can cosplay it all you want.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you can cosplay whatever, but what I'm saying is it [00:08:00] doesn't work. It's like a large scale. But we were saying what's also really funny about, like, what people think is trad and what people don't think is trad.

Furries are super trad. Yeah. Like, they are far They're more trad than the nuclear family. Far more trad than the nuclear family. They are far Furries are more trad. than Christianity. Furries

Simone Collins: are more of a trad than

Malcolm Collins: even traditional, ultra Orthodox, like as much as you can go back, Judaism. Yeah. Furries are probably So let's let's describe what we mean by this.

So if you look at what furries are, these are people who identify with an animal persona and they will wear costumes that allow them to take on this persona and they will go to specific parties that involve So a number of people, but not necessarily all the people at that party [00:09:00] taking on different personas associated with these animals.

And these animals can exist at different levels of full animalness. Like there's extreme and lesser versions. And

Simone Collins: sometimes all it involves is just a few. animal accoutrement. You know, you're wearing a tail or you're wearing some furs or some ears, but like people have been doing that for a

Malcolm Collins: long time.

There's more to the furry community than that. They also will engage with texts that are anthropomorphize animals where these animals are not representative of anyone exactly in the community, but act as inter community cultural nexuses or nodes that everyone in the community would know about and relate to each other with.

This is

not just what furries do, this is what ancient Egyptians did, this is what ancient Africans did, this is what ancient Native Americans did, this is what ancient Chinese did, but a really interesting thing, sorry, a little side note before we go further, remember how I was talking about like a cultural touch point here, So [00:10:00] a lot of people you know, they might see our show and they'll be like, why do you always have like these low culture, like these pop things like appear in the show?

anD like, why, why, why do you communicate that way?

Darmok and Jilard at Tanagra.

Shaka. When the walls fell

Malcolm Collins: the clip I just played is of this traditional Star Trek episode where they meet a species that communicates entirely in cultural references.

Love that. I think when you see this species all talking to each other, Simone, is that a bit like you when you go to a family meeting between me and my brother? Yes. Because we both, he just like me just constantly quotes shows as a way of relating or describing what's going on.

But it appears they're trying their best. As are we. For what it's worth. Shaka. When the walls fell.

Darmok. Darmok. Rai and [00:11:00] Jiri at Lunga. Shaka. When the walls fell. Sina at Anzo. Sina and Baka. Darmok at Tanagra. Shaka. Mirab! His sails unfurled! Darmok! Mirab! Taymok!

The river. Taymok.

Simone Collins: Oh, and he'll test you.

He'll be like, do you know what that's from? If you don't know it, like he will judge you. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, and it's low stuff as well. Like, Oh, you don't know this random anime quote that you should know. You don't know this

Within our family culture, it would be considered very arrogant. To quote or reference.

Really cultured things. Like a form of extravagance or finery or, , Vanity. That shows you to be lesser and insecure. So you almost end up competing on a how low culture and the things you're quoting are because to show yourself as high [00:12:00] status. You need to have achieved a lot, but not be. Embarrassed about how you present yourself or the things that you show. You engage with, and so you almost had a flex. How not embarrassed you are. Thus this episode on furries.

Malcolm Collins: anyway, back to it. But yeah furries are something that humans have traditionally been doing throughout our entire history and are probably one of the most common cross cultural references you see when you look at early human cultures and yeah, they're universal.

It's not just. The early days, and I think that this is the thing. So when I talk about like within the furry community, they have some like, animals that they anthropomorphize that are part of their stories. Well, this is what you see in early Native American religions, early Egyptian religions, early African religions, or even current ones in these communities where you will see them anthropomorphizing animals that are, you know, we'd see them as gods or something because they're part of this early religious framework, but they're not exactly gods often.

They don't really interact with people's lives. [00:13:00] They're more like shared cultural narratives. Touchpoint. You also have this in early Europe. So don't anyone say that like this is not a European thing. Europeans definitely had these. If you look at early European history So even that's the same. The idea of dressing up as animals you'll see in these cultures, the idea of dancing or going to parties where you dress up as these animals, the idea of partially identifying, like they have different ways of relating to this.

Like maybe an animal spirit partially overtakes you and you partially become this animal, right? But this is what you see within furry communities. It is fascinating to me that it is just this ancient ritual that people are performing, but it gets more interesting than that. So if you look at. Masquerade parties.

So the original masquerade parties. So a lot of people when they hear masquerade parties today, they think of people walking around in this little like

Simone Collins: Those half assed masks.

Malcolm Collins: Mm mm. The original masquerade parties, you would take on an alternate persona. And many of these personas were, I mean, there was a diversity of, of, of ways that you would do it.

But they were clearly, like, medieval iterations of these early furry [00:14:00] parties.

Simone Collins: Furcon. What? Furcon. Medieval edition.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, you could say that people are doing this when they you know, the idea of, of dressing up as shared cultural touchpoints, like you would have at an anime convention or something like that.

It's also a very ancient thing to do. No, totally. Go to conventions where everyone does this and like you're channeling these entities.

Simone Collins: Maybe the 14th, like, you know, you know, cosplaying as different mythical creatures. Or Rome. Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. People can cosplay as their favorite characters throughout history when they can afford to.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, well, Roman emperors would often do this, where they'd be like, I'm this mythological deity, you are this mythological deity, let's also have sex with these

Simone Collins: mythological deities. Well, then they're practically then almost otherkining it. But anyway, we'll not go there.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, but let's go there.

Otherkin. Otherkin are people who believe that they have some sort of spiritual connection. to what we would think of as fictional identities, like a character from Harry Potter or an anime character. Right. And they think that that is part of their personality. You know, I was talking to another kin recently and they [00:15:00] were like, it's really interesting how much the other kin's social networks have changed recently.

So it used to be that if you ran into somebody who had the same identity as you, that was seen as like a bad thing and you wouldn't want to overlap identities within social networks. But now people disproportionately and intentionally. Seek out people who have these different identities. And they were talking about why people do this, like female puberty.

. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, I mean, I get it now because I get that. There is this extreme desire to belong to a group and also like you have a crisis of identity when you hit puberty and you're like, my body is changing.

My feelings are changing. Like, who am I? And you don't really know who you are yet. And you also don't have the means or independence to figure out who you are. But like, if your friends start tagging you as like this character, and this character is fully fledged out of the box, pre assembled. They have their lives figured out.

It's like incredibly comforting. And you just be like, yeah, I'm that person or I'm that character. And so that would be really comforting. And these days also, because I think we are experiencing like [00:16:00] maximum atomization and isolation in society. I could see why also Otherkin of a particular character who may have in another time, not been so, so thrilled to see another.

One of their same character are now thrilled to see it because just like now I'm not alone now. There are other people like me and like, I feel less alone in this moment. So yeah, that also makes sense to me, but yeah, yeah, shared goals, shared values you know, that's, and that's comforting because we. In, in progressive secular culture, there, there's not a whole lot of shared goals and values.

So like, if you can just find the same character as you, I guess that's the closest you're going to get to that amazing feeling, which is. really depressing. But there you go.

Malcolm Collins: So this brings me to an interesting question. Yes. So people will see this and they're like, okay, this is obviously true. Like furries have been around for a long, long time.

Simone Collins: Why, why are people so weird about furries? Cause people love [00:17:00] hating on

Malcolm Collins: furries. We'll talk about that in a second, but I want to talk about. Well, but we can talk about that now. What does trad even mean? Like if you're trying to be trad, but you say furries aren't trad or not the type of trad you wanna be.

Huh? What's causing this differentiation? Like, what is trad actually, if not furries? Because I don't think that that's what people mean. Like the way people use trad today, let's be honest,

Simone Collins: is not actually traditional.

Malcolm Collins: It's not actually traditional, and they don't actually mean they want to go back to traditional ways of doing things.

They don't want to go back to Yeah, what does trad mean then? Right, so very interesting. So first, Well, so actually I think it's a, a, a cultural aesthetic that is based around a fantasy that never existed, just as much as furries. Or people who go to conferences or, you know, they are cosplaying as something that never existed, but they So trad is a

Simone Collins: genre that in the, in, in, it's completely, it's a, [00:18:00] take the word trad, disassociate it from the concept of traditional or history or historical accuracy and just make it a genre, like anime or like DC comics, right?

And then that's a thing.

Malcolm Collins: But I think it works. Now, let me be clear. I am not denigrating this trad concept. I actually think trying to cosplay like a 1950s wholesome family is one of the few cultural contexts we have for what it looks like to be in a happy relationship with happy kids. And so if you're trying to figure out or trying to search for how do I build that for myself?

Cosplaying that and cosplaying creates the thing you're cosplaying really frequently. So if you cosplay a religion, you will often become that religion. And this is, this is the point of, you know, when we talk about, we do not mean ever to denigrate like Catholic rituals, even though we have a cultural aversion to them.

Somebody was pointing out it is the cosplaying of those rituals, which makes somebody become a devout Catholic. [00:19:00] Right. It is through cosplaying this trad concept of a family, one of the only concepts of a family we have in society of what does an actual wholesome family look like that leads to individuals, you know, being, being this, this, this happy, wholesome family, right?

I mean, what do we look like now, right now, you and me right here, but you, you shouldn't over emphasize in the cosplay to a level of economic unrealism. Right. IE, a family with like seven kids living off of one income is, I'm going to be honest, unrealistic. That is not

Simone Collins: true. Well, no, no, some people actually make it work.

But They do, but it's difficult. Some people, and I think that's the big emphasis and you have to really know that you can pull it off. And I think a lot of people do it before they realize they can make it work.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Or they commit to it as the only way they're going to have kids. And this is why. You know, we did an episode which showed that conservative countries, well, conservative individuals have more [00:20:00] kids within a country.

Conservative countries have fewer kids than progressive countries when you control their income. And I'll put up the graph here. This is not a big difference, but it's like you don't expect any difference here. You expect it to be a sharp curve in the other direction. And this is likely why. It's because they say, well, I'm going to wait to like, and like raise a bunch of kids off of one person's income.

And like, that is unrealistic for. Everyone, uh, for, for most people, not like the top two, 3 percent of our society, but for most people now why are furries denigrated, right? That's an interesting question.

Simone Collins: Well, because I, and I think that there's a false answer that everyone's going to immediately go to that's wrong.

And I think that false answer is. Because there's, there's sex stuff. Which is, it's weird because also like, okay, but in trad marriages, there's sex stuff. Like, I'm sorry. Do you like

Malcolm Collins: BDSM? There's sex stuff in that community isn't as denigrated. It's

Simone Collins: a, yeah, it's not the sex stuff. Although I guess like we, at least within BDSM [00:21:00] and with trad, the sex stuff is not sometimes correlated to.

Zoophilia, whereas there, there is a bit of a, like zoophilia, slight, I would say weak correlation with the furry community. Like, it's not intense, but it's, there are some furries that

Malcolm Collins: are into that. Yeah, absolutely. But I, I wouldn't say that the community is like disproportionately zoophilic. Yeah, not at all.

No, no. Okay. I will say the community is disproportionately zoophilic when contrasted with the general population. What

Simone Collins: are you going to do? It's animals.

Malcolm Collins: I mean. Your average furry isn't zoophilic. I'd say that, you know, maybe

three to one percent of the community is. Yeah, that's fair.

So I would thinking back to the stats from our sexuality book and the pragmatists guide to sexuality. I realized that the number of furries who are actually through a field, like it's almost certainly much higher than I just cited. If you look at Kinsey's study, , back in 1948, he found around 8% of all men and 3% of all women had had sex [00:22:00] with an animal. What's really interesting about these numbers is that they are about the only kink that we could find that has dropped significantly over time.

More recent studies have shown that this number is only around 5% of men and 2% of women. what's interesting is that our study, when we were looking at how many are attracted or find the idea of rousing to sleeping with animals, , that is around 6% of males and 2% of females. And if our data is accurate in the other study is accurate.

That's insane because that means around 87% of people who are aroused by the idea of having sex with an animal have tried it. Also those numbers are shockingly high, like a much higher than I would have anticipated. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I just had a terrible thought. So if I have slept with around. 150 women. And 2% of women have slept with an animal. That means there's a rounded 95% chance that one of the [00:23:00] women I have slept with has slept with an animal. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Malcolm Collins: So that's, that's my read.

So that being the case why, why do people hate this community so much? Well, huh. I guess it's actually has to do with one thing. Deviant, deviation from society's mainstream value systems. So if you look at the dominant cultural groups in our society, whether they're the Christian cultural groups or the dominant urban monoculture today, furries are loudly and visibly different from either of those cultural groups.

Simone Collins: In what way, though, that like steampunk fans or anime fans. Or like, Trekkies are not. I just think it's louder. Just louder? Do you think they're more irreverent, maybe? I feel like there is more irreverence. Like, you don't hear, like, there's that famous Furcon, that like, just they trashed the hotel.

Rainforest, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Look it up, by the way, very [00:24:00] interesting story. I think Internet Historian does a thing

Simone Collins: on them. Yeah, yeah, I think an Internet Historian is just the most brilliant person ever. I

Malcolm Collins: love him. By the way, if he ever listens to any of these, we would love to talk to you or know you. You are hilarious.

Simone Collins: Yeah, seriously. Unless he's like literally your brother and he could be based on the humor. Actually,

Malcolm Collins: he really could be my brother.

Simone Collins: I have these moments where I watch his videos and I'm like, but really? Oh yeah, so if people are wondering what my

Malcolm Collins: brother is like. Internet historian. Just

Simone Collins: internet historian.

That's my brother. That is, that is Malcolm's brother. Yeah, so either internet historian, you have like a twin out there and it's Malcolm's brother or you are him. We know.

Malcolm Collins: I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's one of our family members.

Simone Collins: No, because it's too close to specifically your brother. But anyway, we digress.

Yeah. So maybe it's the level of irreverence, the level of like craziness. So like if you were to combine soccer hooligans in Europe with. [00:25:00] Anime nerds, you know, you've got both the, the cultural difference and weirdness combined with, um, the, the unruliness, maybe there's also something about like people associate mascots and like people wearing costumes.

With childhood, so it's kind of like someone dressing up like Barney and like, maybe for some people that violates some like weird,

Malcolm Collins: Let's talk about why cultures hate people who are different from them, right? It's important to know, right? Like, why would cultures just shame and isolate people who are different from them?

Okay. Because the cultures that didn't ended up disappearing. When a culture doesn't shame difference, it disappears. This is just basic cultural evolution because then difference ends up replacing it. And the differences that did shame people who are different from them do end up disappearing. Touche.

Or do end up replacing it or whatever. But anyway, the point being Is it if our culture did not shame for [00:26:00] freedom or didn't shame people who are different from it, it would end up being replaced. And so most cultures shame things that are different from it. So then the question is, why do most modern cultures like modern successful cultures, when we can see that furries were so common throughout history, this impulse, this, this, this cultural display, why do very few of the successful cultures, whether it's the urban monoculture or conservative Christian cultures, why did they not do this?

That is interesting. And I think the answer is that it just serves no utility. It's, it's completely vestigial. I think it's probably part of early human evolution that had to do with group bonding rituals or maybe the evolution of our understanding of cognition or like the way cognition works and the theory of mind works and then accidentally getting it applied to animals.

I don't know. And then, and then that ended up creating a The loop, I forget the words for this. There's a, an effect for this in, in biology. So that could be what you see there. We, we talk about it in our episode of should music be a [00:27:00] sin. If you look at that. Hmm.

Simone Collins: What I would add though. So, yeah, I mean, I agree with you and yes, so culture has to denigrate and other these people and because furries are extra other and also unruly, like maybe that's just giant target on their foreheads, but what's also uniquely interesting is that.

It's, I think what culture also likes to do is like kick out the useless, you know, like, denigrate the, the nonproductive, but furries are not that. And that's what something blew my mind about this. And this happened in an unconference session we were at, at, at an event that was. So off the record that for the first time ever, we've been forced to put our phones in Faraday bags for long periods of time.

It was completely inhumane. But one Inhumane, I love it. It was. One It's a perfect for an analyst conference. One fairly famous Guy on Twitter was in one of these unconference sessions and, and furries came up and we were, it came up in the context. I'm not going to name him. But it came up in the context of like, you [00:28:00] know, where are there overlooked, but very productive and smart people in society.

And he's like, actually furries like have, I, I've met, I've met a bunch of furries. Like apparently there was a fur con right before some conservative conference that he was attending. It was like pretty high profile. And. Okay. Like he spoke with a bunch and, and asked like, Hey, you know, how much is your costume?

Because they have these, you know, super elaborate costumes. And you know, they're like 15, 25, 000. You know, these are, these are people. And the only

Malcolm Collins: five or six.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And it's, these are, these are extremely expensive costumes. These are like people with careers and lives who are very smart. Some of my, like, like some of the coolest, smartest people that, You know, I've encountered online who like do really amazing work are also furries and like made fun of for that.

It's, it's just so weird because this is also a group that is disproportionately of very high intellectual firepower. I don't, I don't know what to [00:29:00] make of it.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So I'll ask you a question. Okay. You want to get, you want to get spicy here. Always. Do you think that people with some animal features, you know, like anime characters and stuff like that are attractive?

Simone Collins: I think it's kind of universally understood that cat ears and Fox ears on both men and women. So this is not, it's not just cat girls. And I think people have a big misunderstanding here. I just actually was hearing the other day. I can't remember where I heard this, but like a major hacking group that I guess is kind of like, we'll say fortune adjacent.

Has like recently taken stuff by ransom and they're like we will not return it until you find some biological way to engineer cat girls or like you like that's how they troll them, which is just amazing. I just have to say that like I'm glad they're doing God's work. These people but it'd be

Malcolm Collins: gross in real life

Simone Collins: though.

It depends Malcolm. Yeah, probably. Cause I mean, have you actually looked inside cat ears? They're really weird. Yeah, actually you're not wrong. Maybe dog years, but I will say, so it's not just cat girls. Think about Inuyasha.[00:30:00]

 Like a lot of girls,

Malcolm Collins: no, I'm thinking there was this, this anime where like people would have like eggs.

The enemy is called .

Malcolm Collins: I'll, I'll find it out that like represented their like powers and then things would hatch out of them. And would they lay the eggs? They had like 17 seasons. It was like a really like,

Simone Collins: would they, would they like crouch and lay an egg? No, no, no,

Malcolm Collins: no. Like they came out of their soul. Like they represented their soul.

And then like little chibi characters would hatch out of it. Okay. But anyway, the major love interest, like the tuxedo mask in this. With a guy who had cat ears and his little thing was like a black cat. And so often in these animes, so at first you said, girls really like this as well on guys. And I was like, that's not true.

And then I think of the number of like anime male characters I know that are predominant love interests that are like a black cat and

Simone Collins: like, Yeah, but here's, here's the counterfactual for that. And where I kind of agree with you with the gross in real life thing is. When I look, when you look at the and maybe it's, [00:31:00] it's, it's a rat tail versus squirrel tail issue.

But when you watch the wizard of Oz live action, which you've never seen, I know you're so strange, but it's not that good. So don't worry about it. There are, there are flying monkeys, but it's really clear that it's just like men and monkey costumes. And they have these long tails and just looks wrong on like a human.

But I feel like if humans had squirrel tails that are fluffy and bushy, it would

Malcolm Collins: be a different story. I admit, I think squirrel girls look cute. It's just like the ears and the big bushy tail.

Simone Collins: Big bushy tail. Yeah. See, I think it's the nature of the ears. It's the nature of the tail. So like dog ears, not cat ears and squirrel tails, not rat tails or monkey tails, you know, and then we're good.

But yes, I do think if you, if you, if you woke up one day. And you had cute fox or dog ears, it would probably make you, which I don't know how this is possible because you become more attractive every day, but it would make you even a little bit more attractive.

Malcolm Collins: [00:32:00] Oh my gosh, now this is spicy, this is

Simone Collins: I don't see how this is spicy.

I feel like if, listen, if like Joe Biden. Suddenly had like white fox ears, you know, like I think that he like he would go up in the polls. I

Malcolm Collins: think that Joe Biden shows his fetish very loudly. I would not be surprised if I go to his office and there is just random people's hair clippings. In his desk

Simone Collins: He like sniffs people's hair,

Malcolm Collins: people's hair.

I was waiting for Joe and just staring at his desk, I decided I'd have a little look see inside the drawers. Uh oh, I think I might know where this is going.

I opened one, then another, then another. And inside every drawer, every single one, piles of human hair. For the first time in my life, I felt like I understood a president.

. As I was sorting through the hair, admiring the collection, in walked the man himself. There was no hiding what I had done, so I just put the hair back, shut the drawers, nodded my head, [00:33:00] and said, Mr.

President? Hey, if he didn't want someone finding his hair collection, he should have locked his drawers. What? We all have a desire to be known, and he's constantly sniffing hair in public, it's not some big secret.

Malcolm Collins: He seems really into it. Like

Simone Collins: isn't that a smell fetish and not a, it's, it's a smell fetish. It's a hair fetish.

Malcolm Collins: Could be a smell fetish. It could be a hair. It's something, but like he does it publicly. He is not ashamed. Proud Kingster. And I also think, and I know conservatives would hate this. Trump, I think is a little out there about being Oh, what's the word I'm looking for?

There are a little too many images and too many video clips. Audio clips, where he does seem to have something about his daughters. Ivanka.

Simone Collins: Is Ivanka hot? I'll say that. She is hot. She is hot. Yes. No, I mean, he's not wrong. He's [00:34:00]

Malcolm Collins: not wrong. He's not wrong. There's definitely going to be an age where like if my daughters end up super hot. And for some reason my brain thinks they're hot.

Like, I don't know. I'd like the Western mark effect is what prevents you generally from

Simone Collins: seeing. Yeah, it didn't kick in.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like I would find hugging them. Like if I thought my daughters were hot, I'd probably find hugging them a little repellent. Yes. And

Simone Collins: like, you wouldn't do it, right. You wouldn't keep your distance.

Yeah. You'd shake their hand or something.

We should just count our blessings that Ben Shapiro doesn't happen to be Trump's son. Dad, why is my sister so hot? I have no idea. I mean, I'm not crazy, right? Like, she's hot. It's insane how hot she is. Was mom ever that hot?

God, no. I feel bad like I'm f ed up for being attracted to my sister. Oh, I think I'm in a little worse of a position. . I am so ashamed. It's a girl. It's a girl. It's a [00:35:00] girl. You know what? I don't think I should be a father.

Yeah, I'm outta here. Harold! Nope, further back.

Simone Collins: Everyone

Malcolm Collins: should have their own thing. As long as it's not hurting the people around him. And he seems to have a really good relationship with his kids.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, Yeah, so it's fine.

Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, that is

Simone Collins: fine. That is fine. Is this, is this like a, is this another podcast we should do?

Like just what do we guess the, the, the, the kinks are of these famous people? I love that. Right. Wait, what blew my mind though is, is that, that Trump and Biden are older than Bill Clinton.

Malcolm Collins: Are they?

Simone Collins: Let's just double. Age of Bill Clinton. 277 years, age of Trump,

77. So the, and Joe Biden is 81. So if, if, okay, Trump was born June and,

and Bill Clinton was born August. Trump is older [00:36:00] than Bill Clinton, as is Joe Biden. That

Malcolm Collins: is wild.

Simone Collins: I know, right? Yeah. Like we have a problem when, because we all thought like Bill Clinton's really old, but no, man.

Malcolm Collins: Also, I think their generation is too old to really have kinks they participated in in private.

Like, if they had grown up within our generation, they'd accept it, they'd know. Don't sniff women's hair publicly. That's a bad thing to go around sniffing people's hair in public. This is something you can go to a special hair sniffing club for.

Simone Collins: A hair sniffing orgy.

Malcolm Collins: It's not my thing, but I, I don't shame.

I, I, if anything, I am. Encouraged by the fact he's so public about it. Yeah. But I do think that maybe he should try to gain consent from the women he uses for this level of satisfaction and not do it with little girls either.

That's a little.

Simone Collins: If someone asked you though, if they could sniff your hair. I don't think that you would say yes.

You'd say [00:37:00] yes? It makes him happy. Oh, that's sweet, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: It doesn't hurt me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does it increase the chance that

I'm murdered? Maybe. I

Simone Collins: mean. No, I don't think so. It's fine.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I, that was a wild tangent at the end of this episode. I love you, Simone. You are amazing, Simone. I love you so much, Michael.

You are perfect, Simone.

Simone Collins: And I, Would I be, hey, no, question has to go back to you, that would I be more perfect with,

Malcolm Collins: I do not think you would be better.

Simone Collins: With like a squirrel tail or something. Okay, a squirrel

Malcolm Collins: tail would be pretty cute.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And little cat ears. Meow meow. And meow. Meow.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, alright, alright, alright.

Simone Collins: Love you.

Malcolm Collins: Our kids are gonna see this someday. [00:38:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah, but I feel like one of our kids is going to end up being a furry. So they'll be like, well, at least mom and dad love me still.

Malcolm Collins: I could definitely see that. It's so common these days. Anyway, you're the best, Simone. Love you, Malcolm.

Simone Collins: Love you, too.

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