Although it’s known for making products for women, Victoria’s Secret was created as a shopping experience for men. It hit its stride in the 1990s, with stores in malls across America and a brand built on a very specific kind of fantasy: supermodels, angel wings, and diamond-studded bras. But when this definition of glamour—and retail— began to fall out of fashion, Victoria’s Secret refused to budge. Now, its future is in jeopardy.

Casey Crowe Taylor is a former Victoria’s Secret employee. Heidi Zak is the co-founder and CEO of ThirdLove.

Podcast production by Jess Miller, Asha Saluja, and Megan Kallstrom.

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