The Red Scare — perhaps most well known through the era of McCarthyism that dominated the social, political, and legal spheres of the U.S. in the 1950s — is actually much more than just a brief window of time where communists in the United States were vilified, criminalized, and blacklisted. The Red Scare is actually much more pervasive and longstanding, originating decades before McCarthyism and stretching well into the present. And, when combined with the Black Scare — the fear and hatred of Black people in the United States — it really forms an entire mode of governance that has shaped the character, policies, and collective consciousness of much of U.S.'s 20th and 21st centuries. To talk about the Black Scare, the Red Scare, and how they work together to create a specific hegemonic atmosphere and policy landscape in the U.S., we've brought on Charisse Burden-Stelly, an Associate Professor of African American studies at Wayne State University, a fellow at the Charles Warren Center for Studies in American History at Harvard University, a member of the Black Alliance for Peace, and author of Black Scare / Red Scare: Theorizing Capitalist Racism in the United States, published by the University of Chicago Press. In this conversation, we discuss the history of the Red and Black Scares by looking at a few different examples of how these modes of governance overlapped and shaped both policies and people in the 20th century. We also explore how these scares have followed us into the present and how they shape and color more contemporary moments like the George Floyd uprisings, the Stop Cop City movement, or the various solidarity movements for Palestinian liberation here in the United States. Further Resources: Black Scare / Red Scare: Theorizing Capitalist Racism in the United States Organize, Fight, Win: Black Communist Women's Political Writing Upstream: The Limitations of Black Capitalism with Francisco Perez Upstream: Abolition with Niki Franco AKA Venus Roots This episode of Upstream was made possible with support from listeners like you. Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.