I have another fun chat with sex researcher and OnlyFans creator Ayla about the latest in her sex studies, including female sexual subtypes and common mistakes men make in bed. We also discuss the future of AI-generated personalized porn, using algorithms to create custom "wife porn", arbitrage opportunities in sexual dynamics, and more!

[00:00:00] Hello, Ayla. It is wonderful to have you here today. Sadly, Simone is not with us today because she is out petition collecting to run for office and she may just not be appearing in episodes for a while now, which is a little frustrating for me.

But oh, by the way, one of the really fun episodes I'm going to do while she's not with us because I've been meaning to do this forever. As an episode, but I haven't gotten to it is I want to do a review. If you ever want to join me on this, this could be fun to do of all of the AI porn websites.

Have you looked into any of these? Not recently. I did like a, like a year or two ago, but that's like a decade in AI timelines. Oh yeah. So, okay. Sorry. Before we get further on the intro, I just got to tell you about these cause they're really interesting. So they typically right now seem to fall into like one of three categories.

One is a category of AI sites that like nudes, photos of women, like, So anyone who you're friends with, you can submit your photos to them. I was going to try it with photos of my wife. Like one morning I actually got interesting and I started submitting photos, my wife to see what [00:01:00] she would look like.

So I'm going to keep it wholesome if I do. Another one, what they do is you choose specific profiles of women. But they're like a, a, like. A, a cat girl meets you at a stream and like this fantasy world or like you have an elf girl as like a slave or whatever, you know, right, like, and you can chat with these individuals and then you can ask for photos of these individuals in specific context.

Which is really interesting. And then the final category is creating women. So you give a set of parameters that you would like a woman to be, and then the AI system would create a woman that fits that set of parameters, and you can now ask for photos of this woman and chat with her. Like, I want to get your thoughts on this, because I think you'd have interesting

Would you like to know more?

You can chat with her now.

Like do they, when is integrated with the chatting? Yeah. So it's integrated with the chatting. So they'll integrate the personality and, and, and background and [00:02:00] jobs you give her with the chat feature. Damn. And then you also get porn of her. Does she like sexy talk? Yeah, but you have to pay for the individual picks.

So you pay for credits. That makes sense. And then the credits get porn of her. What I was gonna do, if I did an episode on this and I was gonna create like artificial Simone's. And try to like, ask them for porn of them. And I, I actually got bored and tried this one morning. Cause I was like, I want to see pictures of my wife, but like, unfortunately the pictures that they gave me did not look enough like her and I got sad and left.

Yeah. I don't think we're quite there yet, but I think we'll be there soon. Once we're there, it's going to be incredible. You can just like have custom wife porn all the time. Right. And when she's not up in the morning yet, I can go online because that's what I'm, what I was doing this. I was like, Oh, I want to talk with my wife, but she's not up yet.

Can I create like a AI simulacrum for her to talk to? No. Well, what are different ways you think AI will be used in the, in the sex industry? [00:03:00] Other than, I don't know. I mean, I recently, I've been seeing photos of me around the internet with different faces. On me, which is upsetting and they're probably just using like face up for this right now, but it's probably going to become an AI thing pretty shortly where it's just like use alums body as a template.

And I'm a little offended by it. But this is more short term I guess. Hold on, I want to ask you about offense questions. So there was something that Simone said she'd find offensive, but I was like, it's kind of flattering in a way. So there was a guy in Japan or Korea or something who his wife ended up divorcing him because he would hire prostitutes that looked like her when she was younger.

And I was like, that's kind of flattering. What are your thoughts on that? Would you find that offensive? I mean, I'd probably find it painful. Like it's painful to not I guess it highlights that you're older now, right? Yeah. It's painful to like be losing out on sexual access because your physicality is not sufficiently attractive.

That's like a quite painful thing. Hmm. Well, okay. So then you, you having other women with [00:04:00] their face on your body, what specifically is triggering a negative emotional reaction around this? I don't know. It's, I don't, normally. Normally, like the thing that you're worried about is like somebody taking your face and putting it on a nude so people can imagine you naked, but it's like your identity, but this is somehow the reverse.

It's like, it's my body, but like I'm erased out of it in some way. And that feels like shockingly dehumanizing in a way I didn't expect. I just kind of didn't expect people to do this at all. Like what the hell is the motivation? Or I don't know. Cause like The motivation is that they want these other people naked, right?

They want sexual access to someone who's not you. Sure. Yeah, well, I'm not even sure it was a real face. It wasn't even like a person. It was just like a generic face that wasn't mine. And so they could like, do it and like sort of steal it without it getting credit to me or something. Oh, and then they would upload them.

Oh, that's Oh, that's like people reporting like, Hey, is this you? Like, this is your body. It's just like a generic. It wasn't a person. It was just [00:05:00] And I'm like, that is, that was me. Goddammit. You're like erasing my identity from a thing. It's almost like there's something that plagiarizes your work somehow.

Yeah. Well, no, it is. Well, so, so I didn't actually finish the intro here because I got so sidetracked by interesting talk about pornography. So, Ayla is, you know, I was actually thinking today and I was trying to think, is there another, because I've written a book on sexuality, a best selling book on sexuality, The Pregnancy Guide to Sexuality.

Check it out. It sells for like 99 cents. It's really good. I have a couple copies. Yeah, so, Ayla, as somebody who like is deeply interested in this field, I was thinking you are probably the best sexual researcher in human history. And then I was thinking, does Kinsey beat you? And I was like, not really.

Kinsey is more like the Freud of human sexual research. He is important because he had the idea to do it, but his research was Terrible. So you're probably the single best researcher on a huge chunk of humanity, and you have such low [00:06:00] self esteem. I always seen your, your, your things. You're like, Oh, I can't really be that great.

Or like, I remember one recently was like, are people really that bad at marketing themselves? And I'm like, Haley, you don't understand. top fraction of a fraction of a percent of intelligence and agency in the human population. People really are that bad. Which is fun to talk to you about sexuality, because most people don't talk about this subject.

And what I had planned in this episode talking about was people need to check out this new substack she's done. It is data driven advice on how to be good in bed. And it is data driven not just from one of maybe the most sexually experienced people in human history but also one of the most Deep sexual researchers in human history, like you are not going to get this is not like woo s**t Like this is not like you're going to like I'm gonna you got a because sexual advice stuff Like if you go to like sexuality coaches, it's all woo like like from the stuff I've seen It's all like half of it is healing crystals and half [00:07:00] of it is sex stuff.

She is like hard data Which is really cool but so I'd love to get to this data, but I'm actually having fun on this topic of the future of like online sex stuff. So do you have other thoughts on where things are going with this stuff? I'm even thinking like if I was going to blue sky, I can give you one of my thoughts on how I might use AI.

I might take Like audio, so like somebody could take, like, suppose somebody wanted to engage with someone like my wife sexually, right? Like was in an online environment they could download like the hours and hours because we do an episode every day of our podcast of podcast episodes create a synthesized personality by separating out the woman's voice, put that into an AI system and have that respond to them.

Now I'm thinking of this selfishly because I was actually like, okay, well, if I wanted to engage with a Good emulation of my wife, that's what I should do because then I could talk to her without distracting her from the important work she's [00:08:00] doing. But you could also then do this with like pictures of women or video feeds of women to create a fully, like really authentically synthesized woman.

What, what are your thoughts? Well, and then what this is interesting and from an evolutionary perspective is it gives all men access to the highest quality woman possible from a masturbatory standpoint. Yeah, this is, I mean, like, it's more than masturbation, it's direct, like, this is part of why OnlyFans is so successful is because it gives you direct personal access to the woman as opposed to porn.

Because people are always like, why am I paying for porn when I could just get porn free? And like, turns out there's a huge market for personalized s**t. So yeah, I think there's like probably, like, it's like a more personalized masturbation, which sounds great. From my end, I'm interested in it because, like, as an OnlyFans girl.

I would love to outsource my content. I would love to just like press the button and have like the A list simulation, you know, like talk and live stream and do videos [00:09:00] for my guys. That sounds wonderful. Because like, I, it's nice. I enjoy, I do genuinely enjoy like being slutty and promiscuous on the internet.

But like, honestly, I've taken so many naked photos of myself. I kind of want to shoot myself. Every time I take a nude. Now, it's just too much and it would be nice. I just want it to happen. People should know you created a contest around this like a year ago, like early, early AI, you are cutting edge. So you handled this huge data bank of images and you created a contest for somebody to create a really good ala generator.

Can you talk about this? Yeah. We, we'd want to see if we could like. Use AI basically, can we make this happen? If it turns out, no, none of the people competing were really quite good enough. Because I think in order to work, it has to be relatively photorealistic. Because people just, it's not that exciting to view something that you can tell is AI.

I think you literally did it the first moment somebody had the idea of doing something like this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, [00:10:00] like I've been in the AI world, the AI safety world for long, well before ChachiBT or AI started picking up in the last few years. So this has been like in the stream, like pretty advanced on it, but it's just not ready.

No one would know this about you as an outsider. Just, you know, like Ayla is really, really high status within the AI safety world in the EA sphere, like among the type of people who are nerds about like Scott Alexander stuff, you're going to get maybe a third of them who are nerds about AILA stuff.

And, and you go to a lot of the conferences and stuff like that because I think like your number one main squeeze is also in that space. Yeah. Yeah. One of my partners is president of Mary. So that helps. Yeah. We were both in the same. Circles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is interesting that you're in all these, these intellectual circles and some people who follow you as an outsider might not know that, that you're pretty high status within these intellectual circles.

Um, well, so I was thinking if you could [00:11:00] automate yourself what could you offer that no one else is offering right now? I guess through a really high volume of images. Like, I'm wondering if there's arbitrage opportunities for you as a businesswoman here. So you have an unusually high number of images of yourself nude compared to other women.

You could process these images, create a better ALA generator than other people. But you need to, it seems like a lot of the stuff is the AI stuff is good personality attachments. How would you handle that? Do you have a big feed of like a video feed or, or video backlogs or something like that you could use to try to create that, or would you try to simulate it?

Like, like for personality wise, just feeler. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have tons of footage of interviews on podcasts and there's a bunch of like porn stuff. I, I would love to have more of me. to talk to people because I think [00:12:00] I'm like, relatively, I have some, some stuff to offer and I just don't have the time or inclination.

I'm like a pretty solo person. I don't like hanging out with other people that much. I'm very private in the sense of the way I spend my time. And so it would be nice to like have somebody. Like an Ayla clone go out and do all that for me. I would love that. I love that idea too. That is, that is fun.

Well, I mean, so then I know you've been thinking about maybe doing a podcast or something like that. Has that moved forwards? Are you more focused right now on the the, the sex guide blog? Well, I'm probably gonna do a good at sex podcast. So the plan is we bring a bunch of women together and talk about what makes sex good.

And we have some variations on this. I don't want to give away too many details, but I'm pretty excited. I have an idea. Do you want me, I mean, are you connected with like, like documentary type teams and stuff like that? Like, have you thought about pitching this to like Netflix and stuff? Do you, I mean, do you have connections there?

Cause I have a few. Well, the thing is, I'm not sure that Netflix would result in the level of revenue that I'm interested in. [00:13:00] Ah, oh yeah. Because you want to gate content access. Good idea. Okay. Yeah. Like right now it's, this is turning into my full time job, basically. It's like paying me more than OnlyFans does.

So, well, education, your brain is now paying you more than I know. It was fulfilling. I love it. I mean, again, I don't, not degrading, like I'm like happy doing sex work and stuff, but like it's, I'm a little burned out and I would love to just do something that engages my brain and getting paid for it. So exciting.

It's also less freaky because there's always this background insecurity that, like, my looks are going to run out and then I can't continue earning money through sex work. And, but this is like, oh, I could keep doing this for quite some time, even after I start looking really ugly. So it's like, It's not insecurity.

Realistically, that's going to happen. I mean, we, we in our society aren't supposed to tell women that, but, like, objectively The, the, that's going to happen. And I think that being very shrewd in how you are backstopping your career. [00:14:00] Which is also really interesting. I think that some people don't think about was, was people like you, as they think that the, you know, like you don't recognize this and you aren't like doing career planning stuff and you absolutely are.

I know it's like a weird sort of like outside, it's not a quite typical mind fallacy that people do, but I get this a lot when, when I talk about like running an orgy, people are like, Oh, she's going to f**k so many people watch out for the STD spread. And I'm like, do you, if you, do you not think about the liches, like if you think about if you were going to run an orgy.

What would you do? You would probably require SCI. It's like a very basic thing that people like aren't they just sort of jump to the conclusion of what the final salacious result will be and not be like, wait, if you logically try to plan something like this, you would probably install fail safes or, or like good safety measures.

And so it's very similar with like sex work. People are like, ah, she's going to get old and then be upset when nobody loves her. I'm like, did you not? Did you not think that maybe I have thought about this? You're right. Oh my God. I [00:15:00] am going to age.

It's ridiculous. I don't understand. It reminds me of the end of Clueless when the lady who owns a cigarette company and smokes cigarettes every day and the girl goes, you know those things cause cancer? And she's like, Oh my God, no one ever told me. Like, yeah, it's the same. It's the same with us. I think a lot of people just don't put a lot of thought into the people that they're attacking was in online environments.

Like, we'll get these attacks, like Oh, they want to replace the world with people who look like them and like, like their genetic stock. And like, I'm like, that's not something we've ever said. And they're like, but their genetic stock is flawed because they have glasses. And it's like, we don't want to replace people with people are like, Oh, they must be racist.

And I'm like, we are like virulently not racist. And they're like, Oh, I don't know about that. You want people to have more kids, but you're not racist. I don't see how those two things could correlate. And it's like, What ? Yeah, it's, it's, I, I [00:16:00] love it. I love it. It's a shame. It's like something I had to update to that people are going to attack versions of you and not you.

Like when I was going into being public, I was like, oh, okay, I'm ready for people to criticize who I am, but it turns out they don't. They just make up like a straw person about you and then criticize that, and you're like, wait, wait though. That's, it's a lot harder to handle, I think. Yeah, well, no, it is, and can you hear me okay, by the way?

I got like a little thing over here. Yeah, somebody's mowing outside. Can you still hear me okay? No, I don't hear it at all. I made a mistake and I got a little alert on my, okay. Anyway, no, so it's really interesting. I don't know how much press you get. Like we get a decent amount of press. Yeah. Interesting things is I begin to get a feel of the different types of attack articles.

Where one type of attack article and they are not correlated with the prestige of the newspaper. One type of attack article we get pretty frequently is it's clear that somebody read the title of another attack article. But didn't pay for the article. [00:17:00] The guardian does this really frequently where they will write an attack article, and it's clearly based on the title of another article, but not having paid for the article.

That's.

Is it like super glaring? Like they like cite facts that are from like before the paywall or something? Yeah, yeah. So they'll cite facts from before the paywall and then they'll say other things that are like something that someone would intuit. Like they'll say stuff like we do like explicitly racist things, which like, it's very obvious even if you had read the article that we spoke against that, but like they hadn't read the article.

They're just like, oh, they're pronatalists. They must be racist or, or where this was really obvious to us is one of the articles on us insinuated that we were billionaires. And then a bunch, they said billionaires like Elon Musk, but it had a picture of us want people to have more kids. And so then when other people wrote articles on that, they would say we are billionaires.

And so there's a huge [00:18:00] genre of article, Malcolm and Simone are billionaires out there right now. I mean, it's not like an awful reputation to have, but do you have any like positive, like attack articles on you out there? Like, like, no, usually the articles Aren't explicitly attack because I think you are more like susceptible to the woke, like, or like more of an easy target for the current cultural war because like you're associated with like, are you right wing?

Are you being tried? Are you weird sex people? Nobody f*****g knows. And me, I'm just like a sex worker. I think this confuses people because like a lot of the mainstream media right now is sort of like at least lip service pro sex work. Yeah. So I think this is confused a lot of the ways that people talk about me.

Normally, I'm in, I'm in media that I didn't volunteer to participate in because people are reporting on something outrageous that I've tweeted. And then that, that will get through the same repeat. Like there'll be like one big article that somebody writes like, Hey, look at this insane thing. She didn't shower very much.

And then there'll be like a [00:19:00] whole string of other articles of people like copying over that information. I'm like. No, but I, I, well, I mean, of the attention economy, you grab a lot of it. I love that. Very, very good at that. It's not really that intentional to be clear. I was like, if Norman, like, I didn't know this was the thing guys, but okay.

But by the way, I don't know if this has happened to you. One of the types of articles that now we watch out for a lot is somebody spotted us meeting publicly with a friend. And now like that entire friend group doesn't talk to us. And like now we cannot meet publicly with people anymore. Like I can't go publicly to restaurants with friends.

I can't like, it's really weird. Like I didn't expect this to happen as quickly. Have you had that happen to you? Like somebody was like, Hey, no, I don't think I have the hate attention of mainstream publications in the same way you do for some reason. I'm more of like, This is, this is, this is Julia Black, a stalker.

Who you know well, who I don't have. like that. There is a [00:20:00] little weird though, because like, I have no, I've hung out with somebody like at conferences, like publicly, I'm talking to people who Like maybe their reputations could be damaged by seeing associated with me, but you know, nothing happens. So I think maybe I just like, don't have a, like you are, you have a thing.

I think you're like easily compressed into sort of a trope, which is like the pro natalist racist or something. Yeah. And I don't think I'm like quite as, like, the weird sex worker is like less of a powerful trope. So I think I'm less vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that outsiders look at this.

They're like, oh, well, I think the trope that you get grouped into, which you don't fall into at all, is, and it's interesting, is actually almost as strong as us. So it's us. We're pronatalists, but we're really anti racism. And we try to signal that really loudly, but people don't always notice. You are a sex worker, but you are also, I consider a very high tier intellectual.

And you try to signal that, but a lot of people probably like group you in was like, sex worker must be bimbo. I get those comments so much. It's like, why isn't anybody taking this w***e seriously? I get that [00:21:00] constantly. Or like, she's a sex worker opinion discarded. It's like a, almost like you could copy paste that comment.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, how could you? You are. And for people who don't know we hang out with like a lot of the quote unquote, like dissident intellectual class. She is pretty much universally respected within that community. As an intellectual. Other people might not be out there saying that.

So one thing I wanted to talk about before we end this, cause, cause this was actually what prompted me to reach out to you about this was a chart that you put together. Yeah. Yeah. Of how much women like it, how much men do it, of sexual fetishes. Yeah. Or let's, it's like a little bit more sex acts as opposed to fetishes, but there are some fetishes in there.

Yeah. And to encourage people to get your thing, I am going to gray this out, so people won't know if their thing is on here or not. But you also put into this what was really interesting, is the standard deviation for like ratings, like is there less variance or more variances? Is this one of these things that people either hate [00:22:00] or love, or is it something that like most people agree on?

There was one thing that really surprised me on here, a lot actually. And it was that almost no women like this. And it was, he doesn't care that much if you come or not. Which is interesting, because I've actually heard the opposite from women, or in a lot of sources that I knew, which is that women don't like when a guy is over focused on whether or not she came.

Now, of course, also in the negative camp is like, thinking you came when you didn't come, asking you if you came if you didn't come. So it's basically like, he needs to make you come, but not be concerned about it. But it was really fascinating to me. I was wondering if you had thoughts on that. Like, is this something you expected when you were doing this, or?

I was also pretty surprised by this result, but I guess it like makes sense if you think about it. Like I have another one in there that's like, he's disappointed if you don't come and like people are much more split on this. So it's like a weird thing where he has to care [00:23:00] and, but like he can't, you're right.

He has to like thread the needle. My guess is that women don't want to feel pressured. Like, Oh s**t. Like I I don't want to feel like I need to come like, but they want him to care a little bit. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so I'm trying to think, what are some of the ones that are the most, she likes it but men almost never do it?

One that's a real outlier here is he wants to roleplay non consent. Our, one of our other videos with you is on non consent parties. So this, if we speak of female male arbitrage, this is a huge area of arbitrage. Women like non consent more than men do it. Yeah, absolutely. This is, I mean, this is one of the most, the things that appears in my data, like regardless of the study I do or what I'm measuring, like women wanting to submit more than men want to dominate is just basically across the board.

And again, like we were saying, like in, Recently that like sadism tends to be one of the subclasses in which this is pronounced, but it's a press all over. I think it should make [00:24:00] sense. Like men are like afraid of being dominant and like maybe men legitimately aren't dominant, which is a kind of weird topic in itself.

But yeah, absolutely. Women way more into that weird topic. Maybe men aren't dominant. What have you seen in this area? Well, like what are your thoughts? Well, I mean, so this is one of the very, very early things that got me into sex research. I was actually listening to Jeffrey Miller give a talk in Thousand Mutual Friend, by the way, I really, I, we haven't had him on the podcast.

I'm gonna make a note. . Oh yeah, you, he's great. But this is, I met him back in 2018 when he was, I was living in New York and he was there and he was like giving a little talk to. It's the rationalist, I think, and I remember being like, well, he's, I asked him, you know, why are more men dominant than women are submissive?

And he like, he didn't really know, which makes sense because nobody f*****g knows. It turns out this has been like one of the biggest focuses in my research since then. And like, there's various theories, but, I don't have a good sense of why. Like one, it's like maybe it's this testosterone thing and testosterone levels are dropping.

So everybody's getting more submissive. [00:25:00] Maybe. Maybe it's like the gay Listen, I can, I can give you an answer. I know the answer. Yeah? No. I know, I actually do know the answer. I can give you the answer. Okay, okay. Okay, look at the genetic Data from the agricultural transition period in human history. So this is like right when we were transitioning to an agricultural society in the early agricultural period 14 women would have children for every one man that would have children.

So you didn't need this to appear at the same rate across men for some men, it was about just not dying and having one or two kids, whereas chieftains women would cook. Conglomerate toward them. So you don't need. Men and women to perfectly match men need to either be super dominant when they're in the chieftain or king role or be submissive and nightly to the, to the extent that they are able to follow a chieftain or king which is a different psychological subset.

Yeah, I think that this is a theory. I think this is related to my, my gay uncle theory where some men sort [00:26:00] of self selected out because of like fewer men reproduce than women. Although I hadn't tied it specifically to the concept of like the chieftain thing. But I'm not totally convinced about this though.

Tell me what you think is bad about this theory. I mean, 14 women were breeding for every man. That's 14 women to one man. That's what was happening on average. That means that many men had 30 wives. Right. But like. Like, could we not say something like, Oh, say the dominant man reproduces at like a much higher rate the dominant genes get spread or, but like, maybe there's some, some of the men, if his genes like.

Or deliberately are not competing, like, why waste resources on them at all? Like, they have to have some sort of comparative advantage. And it seems weird to not, like, be spending all of the genes on the thing that has the max advantage. Like, like, things tend to be just really competitive in that way. And it's similar to, like, why, like, I think the gay uncle theo Like, literally, the gay uncle theory part is bad.

Because, like, gay Like, why would you spend genes on having a gay man? Like, the selfish gene theory. Like, [00:27:00] those genes There's no such good of the group kind of thing. I don't know. I'm not really expressing myself super clearly here. I'm sorry, I'm going to take the gay uncle theory, split it out here. First of all, what you said was really smart.

I like it and I'm probably wrong. You convinced me I'm probably wrong there. Okay. I don't know. I'm just saying you're not necessarily right. I'm saying, I don't know. It's not enough information. Gay uncle theory is the theory that gay men have either they invest in childcare for their siblings in a way that increases the number of kids they can have, or they have siblings of gay men who have kids particularly women, have female offspring that are more feminine.

Then they otherwise would be the two iterations of the gay uncle theory. The problem is, is you would just need to have so many extra kids to offset the kids. The gay uncle is having, it doesn't make sense. Also it doesn't make sense because you see similar rates of gay populations in animal species where you have no parental care, mammal species specifically.

These are my two arguments. Thank you. That's [00:28:00] thank you for your, I, this is, I didn't. actually know that. And it's, I like that you're strengthening my argument though. Yeah. Well, I mean, so people don't often consider if, if I would have two kids, like, okay, suppose I'm supposed to have four kids and my gay uncle's supposed to have four kids.

But he decides to have no kids, and we still need to be, like, genetically successful as a family, then I need to double the number of kids I'm having. Like, that's really hard. If you look at my family historically, I have my family's birth records. If I go great grandfather and back, for, like, every person for, like, four generations, we had 12 kids each.

A gay uncle was not gonna double the 12 kids. Yeah, that's, that's a good point. Yeah. So, I mean, like there might be like maybe roundaboutly something to the gay uncle theory, but I find it kind of implausible. And for that reason, I'm like less swayed by thoughts that like maybe men's like are self selecting out of the gene pool a little bit by being submissive.

I'm like, why would that be beneficial at all? [00:29:00] My guess is it's more likely some sort of like weird anomaly or like a change in. In testosterone levels or something, but I don't know. Very interesting. Okay, I want to see if any other, other things here strike me as interesting. Oh, here's one. So, so the, he wants to roleplay Nugget, like that was a controversial one, right?

One that women really like that not many men ask for is you edge him and he edges you. Yeah, I was really surprised by that one. Aging in women is popular, but not in men. Yeah, I don't know what that I don't even know. I'm not really into edging personally, so it's like hard for me to develop theories for that.

I've never met someone who told me they were into edging, but apparently men don't ask this enough, so Yeah. To be fair, in this survey, the I actually didn't use identical phrasings for both of the edgings, so it's possible that there's some artifact making, like, the gender thing different, but the [00:30:00] absolute location of them are correct.

But yeah, I don't know. Here's one that almost all women are into, or a lot of women are into, but like guys don't realize women are into, he's experimental, suggesting unusual things, or he asks you to try an unusual but inoffensive fetish. So knowing your inoffensive fetishes as a guy is actually pretty safe with women.

Even if there's one that was like, it even showed, even if you're not interested in it. I can't remember what that was. Like, that was the word you used. I think that might be the unusual but inoffensive fetish one, I think. Okay, I can't remember. Another one that's actually pretty common for, that I think would surprise a lot of people is He's aroused by your pain.

Yeah, the sadism. Yeah. Yeah, that's the sadism gap. Men just don't like hurting women that much, which is so funny because like a lot of like the anti porn feminist stuff is like, oh, porn is corrupting [00:31:00] men to make them like more brutal and rough with women. And I'm like, porn is accurately updating men.

Excuse me. It's so funny you say this. So, we wanted to do an episode and this is what actually encouraged one of the things that encouraged us to reach out to you is I wanted to do a The data versus Mary Harrington. I like Mary Harrington. I've met her. We've done interviews with her. She's a nice person, but she will go out and say things like men like choking women because they watch porn and this means they hate women or like they look down on women.

I'm like, no women like being choked and not enough damn men are choking them. That's what the data says. Yep, absolutely. This is like one of the most robust findings around sex research, is that women desperately want men to do this more. Although to be clear, this is like pretty bimodal for women. So like, this is like the hurt me, please me spectrums that we have been talking about.

Like, like, this might be why we're seeing such like a pushback publicly. It's because like women either really like being choked [00:32:00] and hurt or they f*****g hate it. And so you probably have women who f*****g hate it, who are like, What the hell? Porn is teaching men to do things to me that I don't want them to do, and they sort of typical mind assume all of the other women are the same.

Whereas like if things were like more, you know, normal distribution, maybe that those are less polarizing for the discourse. Yeah, no, I think that's really powerful. And I think that that's where we need to move. Like if you're having the honest discourse, which is what we try to do on this podcast, the truth is, is that this is a bimodal thing you need to establish before you sleep with someone, whether or not this is something that they're interested in no.

that many more women who are interested in this have their partners actually doing it with them. But there is a portion of women who sleep with men who are trained to do this by the many women they're sleeping with because on average, like half of women are into this. And then they do it with this one woman who like hates it.

Like it's a very bimodal and they're like, Oh my God, how could you have done that to me? Do you hate me? Do you hate women? Are you a monster? Did you learn this from porn? And it's like, no, I learned it from my ex. She told me she liked it. I don't know.[00:33:00]

Yep, absolutely. Although I don't, I don't know, I mean, the data might say it's bimodal, my experience is it's like 80 percent of women. Well, it might be some selection effect. So like, I have two boyfriends right now. One of the boyfriends is like, Hmm, it sure seems like almost every woman I have sex with wants me to hurt her.

That's interesting. I have my other boyfriend. It's like, I just have never really come across women who want rough sex. And I'm just like, Whoa, tell me, I don't need to know who they are. I want to know the personality profile. How are they attracting these two different categories? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, so they both have extremely high body count.

So it's not like there's something that they're putting out that's attracting different women. So I'm saying, I think you might be putting out the, like, somehow, I don't know. But like, it's interesting because both of them are quite traditionally male and like dominant feeling. They're both like, I'm a man who will ravish you, but in different ways.

I think one of them's a lot [00:34:00] sweeter. Oh, is the one who attracts the women who don't want that sweeter? No. Oh, okay. So here's the, here's the hypothesis. Oh, sorry. I don't want yes. Sorry. I was confused by your The one who, we don't want to attract women who want to be hurt. Sweet guy attracts vanilla girls.

But to be fair, he's still quite, I, sweet feels like it's not really summing it up. He's much more emotive. He's like very emotional, like can sink into his body, embodied, like very, like, Is this the one I met? Cause he seemed very sweet to me. Which one did you, I thought, did you not meet both of them? Oh, I thought I, I don't know.

I, I, I, the number one main squeeze guy who I've referenced before. Oh yeah, that was the, he's definitely more of that. He attracts women who are more like so brutally submissive. No, we're not naming anyone. We're not. Okay. Okay. No. Okay. So being named, to be clear, I really want this guy right now or something and like [00:35:00] talking about your relationship.

It's fine. I like it. Yeah, it's, it's been going well, he, he likes it when I talk about him because he was the one that wrote me like the, you're not that pretty card. I don't know if you saw this at all. I love that post. Continue. But that was in private Kayla room, right? In, I posted this on Twitter and I found people started writing.

This is one of the things that people wrote articles about. Sorry, I never know what's from the private chat and what's not. Yeah, it's okay. Okay, tell, talk about this. This is a good one. Yeah. So he wrote, he told me I wasn't that pretty. It was in context. It made more sense because I was like, I think everybody's gaslighting me about how hot I am.

They're saying I'm pretty. I don't think I'm that pretty. And he was like, yeah, you're not that pretty. I was like, my poor heart. Anyway, he wrote me a card saying, I'm sorry, because it was very sweet moment that he ruined by saying that. I'm glad he did anyway. And then I posted on Twitter and went viral.

And then at the end of the viral tweet, I was like. If anybody wants to apply to have sex with him, here's a, here's a form you can fill out. Did you talk about [00:36:00] how good he was in bed? He very, he, this is, he can call me not that pretty all day. Okay. His dick is fire. So, which is interesting. So the, the former actually got quite a lot of responses.

I think he had 150 women fill it out and he has had sex with a lot of them at this point. Which is interesting that something like that attracts so many women. Like my guess is that. they were seeing him sort of neg me in a sense and like I'm like relatively like in this context high status right because I'm like have a lot of followers or whatever and so they were perceiving him like oh if I can have sex with this guy this sort of means that I'm special about having sex with him you have had sex with lots of people when I was younger I had a high body count but one of the primary mechanisms that serves girls for me was other girls opinions of sleeping with me.

One girl would tell all her friends, one you can sleep with him, he's safe, and he's like, fun in these ways. And I think that guys underestimate it. It's so funny, all these red [00:37:00] pillers are out there, like, trying to be like, And it's not, like, I identify as a red piller to some extent. I think they see some things that are true, but, like, they try to be, like, tough and, like, and, and cruel towards women in a way sometimes, and it's, like, the easiest way to get women to have sex with you is to have another woman who they respect saying, you should go and have sex with this guy.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is the Girl Whisper Network. This is the reason I originally had sex with this guy, actually, is because one of my friends, who he used to date, was like, I think you might really enjoy sex with him. And I was like, take your This is a good voucher. I'll go try it. Sure not to be right. Very Catherine Green of you.

Very what? Well, Katherine the Great used to have a person I don't know if this is myth, but it's at least heavily canonized myth that Katherine the Great used to have a woman who was supposed to sleep with all of her potential partners before her to see if they were worth her time. That's so smart.

Wait, I should get one of these! Wait, no, I think I did. Like, cause, cause his [00:38:00] partner, he has another girlfriend who I like. Quite a lot. And she's so super slutty, so I can just have, and we have very similar sex tastes, just ask her. I love this. You need an AILA vetting system. He needs a vetting system now.

Well, I mean, with 150 potential. applicants here. This is what you get for sexually pleasing someone like Ayla. You get it published on Twitter and then a huge pool of applicants coming to you. But hold on, actually, I want to, I, I think when you talk about the sweet guy versus the not sweet guy contrarianism, I actually think contrarianism might be the difference.

Is this, is the guy who is attracting the vanilla girls, not a contrarian? Well, no, it's. It's, well, depends what you mean by contrarian. I would say Does he like, like, arguing and disagreeing with the mainstream perspective? No, not, not in that way, I think. Oh, okay. But he's very good at holding his ground and not like, giving in to what [00:39:00] women sort of want.

Like, he passed the s**t test with flying colors kind of thing. Oh, so this is the first thing with me? Speaking of s**t tests, because people, okay, first I'll define a s**t test for people who don't know what that are. It says, theory was in the red pill community that women will test you for your dominance.

To be like, hey, you, you know, whatever, right? When I was dating around, like, and sleeping around, I never got s**t tests. I've gotten like maybe two s**t tests in my entire life. I bet you got s**t tests. I bet you got s**t tested though. You think I'm just too, I'm too blind to notice that they were s**t testing me.

I was just like, because like the way that red pillars talk about s**t tests are usually extremely obvious. Like the girl will like insult you and see if you felt her or she'll like, ask you to hold her purse is the classic example. But I think the vast majority of s**t tests are significantly subtler.

And they're more like, like asking you a question to see if you try to like, say a response that feels like you're trying to make her happy, like stuff like that. Oh, For reference, by the way, if a [00:40:00] woman ever asked me to hold her purse, I wouldn't take that as a s**t test. I would hold her purse. Like, women need help sometimes.

It's only when you s**t test in, like, trad culture or something. It's not a s**t test in normal culture. They're just, like, inconsiderate and they think they're being s**t tested. But I love what you're saying. You're probably right there. Is they would ask me stuff, or maybe the reason they didn't s**t test me is it was obvious I didn't care what they, like, mainstream society thought or what their opinion was.

And I think what the test might be deployed for is men who are trying to get a woman to sleep with them by pretending to mirror their belief system. Yeah, very much. I think this is very close to the sex, did you read the sex is a status game post that I wrote? I liked it. Okay. Tell me, tell me more about the reference here.

I wrote a post, so this is, it is sort of like a, I think should test our subcategory. It's one of the tabs I have open on my screen right now, but continue. Yeah. It's, it's not a huge deal, but it's just describing like the ways that we do status games in interactions and how this is like very prevalent.

And it's a lot of people have like a really negative [00:41:00] connotation with the concept of status, but it doesn't have to be. Often it's very like game like and often it's very like playful. Like when you're flirting with somebody, this Often involves a lot of status play. And so like I break down videos of like analyzing how like the status play is happening and like romantic interactions or whatever.

But I think that s**t tests are like one subcategory of this. Like you want to, you're testing the guy to see if he can like, not. Be broken underneath your will or something. That's like a strong way of putting it, but it's much more subtler. It's something like, is this guy, am I seeing who this guy is, or am I seeing like a version of this guy who's like trying to warp himself into something to get into my pants?

So, guys might not understand how important this is for women. Like, this is not an idle thing. So when I've been giving women, like, dating and sex advice and stuff like that, they're like, how do I tell if a guy's just telling me what I want to hear or if he is actually being honest to who he is because I'm looking for Either a long term partner or something like that, right?

And a lot of guys learn, they can just tell them what they want to hear to get the [00:42:00] woman to sleep with them. There is a reason for women to be vetting for this, but I think that there's a certain type of guy. I might be an example of this. Who's just so obviously not telling people what they want to hear that they don't need to test it that much.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's probably what's going on. They're like, oh, this guy doesn't give a s**t when I think about him. Okay. . Yeah, he, whatever he feels like. Anyway, I, I love this. This is fun. I, I, I, I hate, so I love that I have a podcast now that I have a reason to have you on to talk with me, because I'm the type of person who like doesn't reach out to talk with my friends unless there's some immediate utility to me.

Yeah, same. I'm like, okay, what's the advantage of talking to this individual right now? Which is so horrible. I'm assuming you're passing that way, I guess. But I, I consider you a good friend. And so I'm glad that I have this excuse to chat with you in a way that potentially advances both of our interests.

And to advance her interests, you need to go. And if you want to learn how to be good in bed for your long term partner, or if you're like, oh, I'm not sure if this weird thing [00:43:00] I'm into is actually normal to be into. Learn if you're actually a friend. Freaky, pathetic weirdo, or if you're, if you're not, but you've got to get behind the paywall.

I'm not giving you the paywall stuff. I actually thought like after I read your article, I was like, this would be a good solo episode and I can put it on the screen. And I'm like, I'm not going to do that. We got to get you subscribed. I decided to try to earn money because I've been doing free research, publishing and quite a lot of work for years.

I'm like, you know what, maybe I should try to get a little bit of pay. So I'm pay well on some of it now. Well, you, you, what's, what was the point of sleeping with all these people? If you didn't, if you weren't doing it to collect data so that now you can turn around and use it on the public and be like, Hey, do you want somebody who objectively has more data on sleeping with people than Maybe all but a hundred thousand people in human history.

It's like her and Genghis Khan here, people. You're not going to get better advice. Oh, thanks. [00:44:00] It's a great interview. No, it's, it's true. I think it's like objectively, you probably know more about sex and is one of the reasons why your research is good. You also, if you watch the first interview I did with her in this series, I did one before, before doing this one.

You're so obviously like autistic y you're so stilted when like you start conversations and stuff like that. Like you're just interested in the data and you're like, yes, that data is true. That is what I found in my study. It was interesting.

What I'm saying is people think they think, oh, this woman's a quote unquote sex worker or whatever. That means that she must be like a charismatic type woman. And, and you are not a charismatic type woman. You are. I can't occasionally be good at role-playing it. I feel like I've learned to like step into like the hot woman charisma.

Oh. Talk about this. How do you role play a charismatic, feminine woman? Like what are you embodying when you do that? I have this video on YouTube, which is like a guide to [00:45:00] being seductive or something. Where I go through all of like the concrete small shifts to my body language that I make in order to like become a woman that men find attractive.

But I just do cam girl. I was saying, check out this video. That's what I'm telling the audience. Because with cam grilling, it's like a, you see who live stream people watching and you tip to you. And so you get like money based on the, how much you can, how hot you can be and generate their money. And so I did this over time and you get very rapid feedback.

Like people are, they're giving you money that are not. And like your average money earning like affects your rankings. So you have like really clear, like. Feedback about like the kinds of things that you're doing that lead to people giving you more money and over time I did this for like five or six years over time I figured out that like Oh different body language in different ways.

I use my voice generates more tips And so this is like brute force like iteration led to being able to be like a hot woman It's not just brute force iteration. I've watched interviews with you where you're like, I looked up the top [00:46:00] videos in the camming site and stuff like that. I tried to develop patterns in the statistics of these videos.

I tried to emulate them. Yeah, I had like instructions on the wall behind me for like different body language things that I would look and like, remember to keep doing. Yeah, you guys are not that aroused by like autist girl. Guys are aroused by like horny girl. And so you have to like signal sexual arousal and, and availability and vulnerability pretty, pretty hard.

What is the number one advice you'd give to a girl who was on a date who didn't know how to signal this? I mean, if she's like me, I know what advice to give, but like people are not sexy in very different ways. Audience is. Disproportionately, severely autistic.

I promise you. When you said that, it's like you don't understand how autistic they are. You do not understand. These people are little Simones. Imagine you're giving advice to, I don't know if she's like you, but she has an aspect of [00:47:00] you in that regard. Yeah, this is true. I don't know, maybe like talk slower and use simpler language.

Don't use big words and speak slow. Literally talk to a man like they're little dumb animals. They will think that you are a little dumb animal and that is what they want to believe. You need to simplify your language. You need to, I love it. I love it. I actually wonder if that's something I could, I couldn't do that if I was told to do that.

I'd never be able to. Oh gosh. There was something else I wanted to ask you that I was really excited about. In regards to that, I forget a really fun one might be to do like a interview version of like a, how do you get escorts thing? I love, she did a full thing on how to actually like what the process of hiring an escort and vetting an escort is like, and I would never do this, but it was fascinating to read.

And I suspect being cross culturally because [00:48:00] when I was in Korea, the process of hiring an escort was different. Yeah. Yeah, my, Oh, was it really? I don't know. I just know that businessmen like they would ask me like other VCs and stuff like that. They'd be like, do you want to go hang out with an escort tonight?

Like in the U S this doesn't happen as much, but in Korea, this is pretty normal. I was like, I'm married. And they're like, what does that have to do with anything? . Yeah, we're getting an escort. We're not marrying her. . Yeah. I think the cultural attitude towards escorts was so different over there.

Have you, have you done anything in Japan or Korea or anything like that? No. That might be an interesting market

studying. Yeah. I don't, I have no idea where to start there, but we could try. We have to relearn the whole game, I think. No, no, no, I wouldn't reload the whole game. This is what I do. Okay, so I'm just business advice here. Go to Japan and Korea. Find out who the [00:49:00] number one escort or sexual influencer is in both of those cultures.

Whoever the individual is, they will almost certainly know who you are or be likely to reply to you. Do cross Promotion with them, i. e. Have them write something for your blog about their culture, sexual practices, and then do an episode with them on their podcast or anything like that. And you will both draw an audience that neither of you has full access to right now.

That's actually a pretty good idea. Here's, here's another one I want to hear your thoughts on. I remembered what I wanted to hear. So Simone and I did an episode on that whole, you know, yum, yum, yum trend and stuff like that. Like idol sexualization. You know the one I'm talking about, right? What do you think is going on there?

And what are your thoughts on that? As somebody who, like, studies what people like. Well, I know that I kept watching it. I don't know if it had the same impact on you. But, like, everybody's talking about it. It kept being on my timeline. And I noticed that every time a video came on my [00:50:00] timeline, I just wanted to watch it again.

And I'm like, there must be something. There's something in it that's, like, hitting my brain that, like, must be also hitting other people's brains. It was difficult for me to tell. So, why not even detect it? Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily sexual. Although you just add a sex drive on top of it and it might amplify it.

Like a lot of sexual things are kind of like that for people who want that. We need a meme of when Simone was pretending to do it. She did a very good job. Yeah. I'd love to do that. She's like, kind of reminds me of like, characters, Pixar characters, you take like the most expressive features and you blow it up.

And sometimes on TikTok, people like replicate, you know, Pixar animation style, where they're like, they'll like do a thing and, you know, talk as though they're an animated character and everything is like more exaggerated and like more caricature y. And this is very much sort of what she was doing. Like, I think if I remember correctly, she had like makeup that emphasized like more [00:51:00] neotenous or whatever, and then had the very caricature, like animated kind of expressions.

I mean, these words also remind me of something that We were talking about on this, which is that people think that these people are like idiots who are doing this or something like that. These women, like one of the main ones who did this, there were two main ones has a, a kid she's trying to provide for the kid.

This is all about like long term career stuff. Like if you watch her videos, like analyzing how she caught this wave, how she exploited this wave, it's all very much career focused. And that is not something to grade her for, you know, she's doing this to support a kid and give them a good life. Oh, yeah, there's no, like, yeah, she, when people do this, they look dumb, which is maybe why people think they are dumb.

But like in order to be on that sort of wave early, you have to have some level of like intelligence and boldness. It's like really hard to be on the front row of a viral thing and like not be that smart. Yeah. She's probably like above average IQ. Yeah, well, I don't want to hold you forever. I know [00:52:00] this was the end of this.

I'm just having fun talking to you now at this point. I'm just like, oh, I'm chatting with Ayla. Oh, oh, here's something I could do on the fetish, the, the fetish one is things that guys do. Okay, here's something that I guess I shouldn't be that surprised about because everybody tells you this.

Something that guys do a lot that women are not actually interested in is he focuses primarily on your vagina as opposed to your clitoris. Yeah, and this one is interesting because in one of my updated Surveys where this one is just about what men do, but then I had another survey where men predict what women like and which is separate from what they're actually doing and men over predicted women's preference for focus on clitoris.

So this is not because men are not aware that women do not like clitoris stimulation, they just don't want to as much as women want it. I'm going to be honest. It's too much effort. I don't, I don't really care. No, if you're a guy who's getting a lot of, a lot of them just don't, [00:53:00] the other one I was surprised about that both men did a lot and women liked a lot, because I didn't think either one of these things would be the case is doggy style.

Yeah. Doggy style is an incredibly difficult position to make good in my like experience. Really like for you or for her, for both? It might be because I'm a tall guy. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I've definitely seen girls doggie pie with a scarf on before. You can't really do that much in terms of grabbing or touching other erogenous zones because, you know, you're in a position where to do that you have to put additional weight on her, which I would prefer not to do.

And then the woman's in a position where you, you need to align perfectly. Not all women of all height and all men of all height can doggie style. You need to have a very Tight matchup for that to work. For it to be one of the most aligned things that guys do a lot and women like a [00:54:00] lot was very surprising to me.

Yeah, maybe it's less surprising to me, but maybe it's because I like it more than you like it. Yeah, yeah, maybe these logistical problems aren't a problem for you and you're not like, Oh, yes, doggy style is always a logistical nightmare. Well, I mean, it can be. It's definitely like one of the less comfortable, but there's something Like, it hits like an unusual Like, it's like a different kind of feeling, which is really nice.

And I think it's a little bit more dehumanizing, which is good. And also from the man's perspective, you can like more clearly see a penis entering. So if you were visually stimulated by watching penis, But what you're watching and entering is undifferentiated from a man often. I'm seeing a woman from the back.

I'm not seeing any of the sexually dimorphic characteristics. I'm not seeing breasts. I'm not seeing a face. Women don't have as much of that as most women think they do. [00:55:00] Holy s**t. Bird. Oh gosh, am I?

Women need to get over themselves. Okay. Here's a fun thing that you might find fun, which has changed about Simone recently. So Simone recently has changed to long hair. She's growing out her hair again to have like medium lengths, long hair. And something that I've noticed is that at different stages of a woman's life, there's different optimal like look categories.

Like when Simone was in this younger category, I really preferred the short hair. Which to me was like the Vulcan look. I always loved that look. Or recently we were watching Hackers was like early Angelina Jolie. I know why, like, I like this short hair look, right? But it doesn't work for middle aged women.

And so she needs to change the way she's presenting to be sort of maximally, and it's not just me, it's also for society as well. Like society does not respect short hair, middle aged women. Short hair is for young women. [00:56:00] Like, what are your thoughts on other things where, like, you can change your optimization as you age?

I mean, like, in general, long hair is more feminine overall. In general, men tend to prefer long hair. It's more associated with youth. So, but it's like, like, there's points you can spend. Like, there's memes about how, like, you know you're pretty if you can pull off a bald look. And if you're not pretty, you can't afford to cut your hair.

And so Simone's like quite pretty and so it seems like she's sort of like has a lot of pretty points to spend before it actually starts impacting people's attraction to her which makes sense that she can pull off short hair. But in general, you want to maximize this like these signs of youth as much as possible once you hit your 30s.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you could optimize for different things. Like when you're older and you're still trying to optimize signs of youth, it's pretty bad. Like it doesn't, it doesn't. This is actually interesting and I'd love to see. I, I suspect that this is the path you're going to go as a sex icon, which is a lot of sex icons sort of refuse to give up the ephemera of youth.

You know, this [00:57:00] is Madonna moves. Madonna. Who am I thinking of? Yeah. Madonna or Marilyn. No, Madonna. Yeah. She keeps trying to look young. Like she tries to capture this young look. Where I actually think that as you're aging, you could probably get a wider audience by appealing to a new kink around your new age category.

Probably, but my guess is people still like hot, older women. If you're an older woman, you probably want one that looks like a young, like a aged healthfully, healthfully, older woman. And a lot of people have plastic surgery. You don't notice like a lot of like older celebrities that look short of their age.

Maybe it just looks like they've aged super well and are still kind of pretty. They've probably had a ton of plastic surgery. So yeah, I plan on. Surgery it up real hard, but you can only, Oh yeah, I've already surgeried myself. I am a transhumanist. Like I would like to modify my body as much as possible.

Well, I'll tell you what I can't tell. You look fantastic. I love hearing about people who have surgeried [00:58:00] themselves generally. I'm not a fan of it. Simone is, continue. Well, it's, it's, I think it's like suffers from sort of visibility bias like kind of like trans people. Like you notice if somebody's trans, if they're not passing well, and if they pass, you don't even notice that they're trans.

So in your mind, all the trans people you've seen are bad at passing. I think the same is with plastic surgery. All the plastic surgery you've seen is by definition bad plastic surgery, but tons of people get little tweaks all the time. You never know. I'm going to counter here. I think that you're right about plastic surgery with trans people.

I, I heard something on trans people recently that really stuck with me. Which is that most trans people don't pass like the, the, the, the, the passing trans person is actually pretty rare. And that because of that trans people sort of rely on society. To go along with this sort of delusion, not, not this delusion, but like to agree with them.

And this is why it's so important for the trans movement to push so hard on this issue. Because. Most trans people don't pass [00:59:00] and they rely on everyone pretending that they do. Yeah. I agree with this, which I think is actually quite cruel for trans people. Like you're doing like this weird psychological thing where like, yes, you're a woman and you, but like other people aren't going to treat you like a woman.

But like, we're saying that that's not what a woman is. And then I think it's like, just creates a lot of confusion and dysphoria for them, which is terrible. But I still, I did update in this direction after like occasionally meeting people that I thought were cis that turned out to be translator. And.

And I agree that, like, maybe this is rarer than, than not passing or something. But after having that experience, I realized that, oh, like my felt sense of like the passingness of trans people is like actually has been off because I was failing to take into consideration these people that I knew personally that turned out to actually be trans.

And that, that did shift the way that I viewed trans people, like the passingness. Oh, that's really fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And that would, that would make a lot of sense. Like NikkieTutorials. the YouTuber? No, I don't. I'll look this up. NikkieTutorials is somebody, like, I was aware of [01:00:00] vaguely for many years.

She's this, like, this woman who does makeup tutorials. She's, to me, she's just been like a lady. Clearly a lady. She's just a woman. And then at one point she had a coming out where she admitted that she was trans. And I was like, holy! Holy f**k. I think that was actually probably one of the best things that happened to a trans woman.

I would have thought she was trans because she was Yeah, when I catch trans women who otherwise pass it's because they're attractive, but she's not attractive enough for me to question it. I don't know if I'm doing this consultingly, but yeah. Yeah, sure. She sounds like a woman. Like, I don't know. This is, this is like when I'm like, if you're, if you're a transphobe and you're like, oh, but like you call her a man, I feel like that's just, there's something weird going on.

Like she's clearly not. Well, yeah, the Simone has the horrifying opinion. I don't know if you've seen, we have the, what is a woman episode and Simone's like, yeah, I consider someone a woman if they pass. And that is like the most offensive thing you can say, but I genuinely think that's the way most people feel.

[01:01:00] Yeah. That was basically what I argued in my article. Like what also called what, what a woman is where I'm like, like, I think by definition, the way that we've practically used. The concept of a trans, of a woman is somebody who looks like a woman, which I, so I think, I think I'm very pro trans and I think we need to develop better technology to help people pass.

Because like, if I were trans, I would want to like go all the way to the opposite side and be convincing. And that would be the thing that feels best for me. And I think everybody should have access to that. Well, I mean, I think that we should have technology that doesn't mean that they need to fully transition.

I think that we should have technology that allows them to fill any body type they want. And I think a lot of trans people who I know don't actually want to fully transition. They want to be FUDA. They want to be, you know, many other things, but like, they, they, they, the, the problem is, is right now there's like this ghoulish plastic surgery monster that isn't necessarily particularly different from an old woman who's trying to be a young woman.

It's not unique to transness, it's just a [01:02:00] product of the technology that we have right now. But as we move forward, Yeah, it is tragic. It is tragic. I agree. And especially when you attribute that much trauma to being like misgendered and stuff like that, I can't imagine how much pain they experience every day.

No, of course, I'm really hoping AI gives us like updates in tech that allows us to modify bodies in a way that like helps dysphoria. I think that'd be lovely. Well, I think what we're actually going to see before that is people are Not interacting in person as much anymore. And I think that this will enable non in person interactions at a higher level within this community, where they can better model themselves as their types of things within online environments, because I think that comes before better.

Transition technology. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. That would be awesome. But yeah. Oh, actually, here's a question for you. How could you arbitrage, well, I guess [01:03:00] the sheer content you have of you. Yeah. You could use that to arbitrage your online environments.

Yeah. That would be cool. I mean, it probably doesn't, it probably wouldn't be that hard for somebody else to compete. Like you just have to generate that. It doesn't take that long, I think, to generate as much information to make good models, but yeah. Well, I've had a blast talking to you. I'm sorry, I'm just looking for excuses to keep talking to you, cause it's, I don't, I don't bother.

And you guys remember when we first met and I was like, ah, person that I like. Oh yeah, no, so we met the first time and we ended up talking till like 3am that day. And I was just like, oh my god, I, I love this person so much. And, and I don't do that. I do not stay up late. People don't know this about me.

Yeah, I can be. with a billionaire and I will take naps in between talking sessions. Because it kills me, you know, I, I cannot stay up. You were just like so compelling to me. Yeah, you too. [01:04:00] It was like meeting a kid. It's like, Oh my God, somebody from, I don't know what tribe we're, we're both from, but it was like, felt like meeting somebody from your hometown or something.

It was really nice. No, no, I did. You know, it was like a sister or something. As I said, like, I don't, I don't, I don't identify with, I identify with my brother. You need to meet my brother. You'd like my need to come out of here sometime. When you start having kids we'll bring you out. We gotta, I have, I have pushed hard for who I think would be a good father in a few unsubtle suggestions who, who seems to have a level of dedication to you and cares about you.

But this is just me as an outsider saying this is a physically fit, intellectually sharp person who seems to care about you. Yeah, well, we will see. I am going through an egg freezing process soon, so there will be Oh, please do. The world I need my kids to have partners. You know we're doing arranged marriages for our kids, right?

I hope they like [01:05:00] that. No, no, we don't they don't have to do the arranged marriage. The way it works, we give them an option and we say, if you don't take this option, we're not doing it again. And a lot of people are like, Oh, that's horrifying. Like, how could you do that? Like, you know, and when we talked to like young people about this and they're like, I love this idea.

Like if only somebody was just like, okay, here's your one choice. Take it or leave it. Your parents thought it was a good option. They know their parents. If you have kids, I'm definitely putting you in the pool. I'll be sending you a letter. If you have kids around my kids age to marry and they're like competent, like non like spaz out.

We'll be like, okay, we have vetted you and your partner. You both seem intellectually competent healthy individuals. Well, this is the thing. You're like, why do you want to marry somebody like was in your family? Well, like who do you see as a sister? It's like, no, no, no. If you see somebody as a sister, it means you don't want them.

You don't want to sleep with them. I don't want to [01:06:00] have kids with you, but the best marriages are second cousin marriages in terms of producing genetically healthy offspring. So, well, then we have to keep this recording then so that they can play it at their wedding one day. Yeah. Right. They'll be like, Oh my God, those creeps

have a spectacular day. This has been a lot of fun to talk and you know, our podcast is actually doing well. Do you know, right now we're at 13. 7 thousand hours of watch time per 28 day period. Wow, dude, good job. Yeah, we have about like 13 people watching us talk at any given time. Anyway, I really appreciate it and have a spectacular day. And I'm glad that things are going well with you in this this project you're doing that how to have sex better. Because it is such a [01:07:00] good niche for you.

Thanks. Have a great day. Okay. Bye bye.

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