"You cannot look at something without touching it." Calle & Gigi take a walk. Listen on sovereignengineering.io Calle and Gigi start with Cashu mint internals and end in embodied cognition. Along the way they unpack sparse Merkle trees, exclusion proofs, unilateral exit, trusted execution environments, recovery paths, the move to BLS signatures, agentic coding workflows, specialist versus generalist models, world models, and why Bitcoin, Nostr, and local AI still feel like reasons for optimism. In this dialogue: how mint state can be compressed into a sparse Merkle tree and why exclusion proofs matter for ecash how unilateral exit could reduce both the slow rug pull and the fast rug pull for Cashu mints why trusted execution environments change the trust model, and why on-chain-first mint backing is the easiest place to start how timelocks and third-party recovery paths might soften mint downtime why Cashu is moving away from its current signature setup toward BLS signatures and what that unlocks how Calle actually works with coding agents, from OpenRouter and OpenCode to fresh contexts and ruthless resets why context windows are scarce, token maxing is wasteful, and one agent per project beats one giant assistant why cognitive science still matters when talking about specialists, generalists, and what frontier labs are betting on why world models differ from next-token predictors and why Vervaeke on AI and embodiment keeps coming back why Thomas Nagel and The Blind Spot show up once the conversation turns to observation, physics, and experience why high-agency builders should feel more hopeful than scared right now why Bitcoin, Nostr, and improving local models still look like the right ingredients for a freer future Related dialogues: #03: Data Ownership is a Lie w/ Pablo #04: Ecash Fixes 402 w/ Calle #12: The Windy Lawnmower Stuff w/ Pete #10: Walking with Jesus w/ gzuuus #11: 10x Less Productive w/ Pablo People mentioned: Luke Childs Waxwing Peter Steinberger Martti Malmi Egge Kukks Yann LeCun Thomas Nagel David Chaum David Wagner Projects & tech mentioned: Cashu Cashu Dev Kit Ark Protocol OpenRouter OpenCode OpenClaw Fabian’s NIP-17 plugin for OpenClaw Bitcoin Nostr BLS signatures Readings mentioned: Thomas Nagel, What Is It Like to Be a Bat? The Blind Spot Against Intellectual Property Calle's keynote Recorded at 952,654.