In this thought-provoking discussion, Malcolm and Simone Collins explore the trajectory of woke culture and its potential impact on society. Drawing from a variety of data sources and cultural observations, they examine whether wokeness is a cyclical phenomenon or a new, enduring force that will shape the future. The hosts discuss the decline in certain "woke" terms in media, the persistence of cancel culture incidents, and the pushback against progressive narratives from major institutions. They also delve into the potential consequences of wokeness becoming entrenched within large bureaucratic organizations, even as it loses popularity among the general public. Malcolm and Simone consider various scenarios for the future, including the consolidation of power by the "woke elite" and the potential for societal unrest.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. A long time ago, a Sal's Park episode came out where they predicted How long woke culture was going to last. It was season 19, episode one. And it was called stunning and brave. And A farmer is predicting the course of woke culture going forwards.

And he says, we have dealt with this before. And based on the last time we had a rise in wokeness, which the last time we had it, it was called the PC movement or the politically correct movement, who are born long after this movement. If you want to see. humor that was lambasting it as a movement, a very good movie to watch.

And I think fairly entertaining is called PCU which is about the deaths of fraternity culture and it being replaced with various activist groups within [00:01:00] college campuses.

It's a whole new ballgame on campus these days, and they call it PC. PC? Politically correct. And it's not just politics, it's everything. It's what you eat, it's what you wear, and it's what you say. And if you don't watch yourself, you can get in a buttload of trouble.

For instance See these girls? Yeah. No you don't. Those are women. You call them girls, and they'll pop your fig. Save the whales! Kay's in the military now! Free Nelson Mandela! They freed him already. What? Those women? Those aren't women, Tom. Those are womenists. You know, I saw the new Madonna video last night.

Un frickin believable. See the one in the middle? The blonde hair? She's looking at me, isn't she? Kind of. What, do you know her or something? Hey, Sam, isn't that the guy that you used to, uh Yeah. You went out with a [00:02:00] white male? I was a freshman. Fresh person. Please. Please. Go talk to her. What's the problem?

Watch this. He's coming over here. Sister, throw him a walk! No, you don't have to do that. Wow. Hi. Uh, is Sam in there? In there? What's that supposed to mean? Yeah, cock man, oppressor. Uh, thank you. You know, this place is kind of insane. Wait till you meet the Causeheads. The what? What do we eat? Red meat! Why don't we eat it? To kill and murder! What do we eat? Red meat! Why don't we eat it? He's Tom, I'm your Causehead.

They find a world threatening issue and stick with it. For about a week. What's up? What up? What happened to the ozone layer? It was last week. Now it's me.

Malcolm Collins: But then that had a pushback to it and it died for a while and then woke as him came. And so Suss Park, I think made the educated prediction that these cycles last about six [00:03:00] years and that we had about 5.

9 left. However, that episode came out in. So we're about four years late on that prediction. This brings me to a question. Is Wokeness just another cycle, like a pendulum? That moves back in force over the course of history, or is wokeness something totally new that we'll only grow or will become more like a subset or religious community within our society.

We've seen peak wokeness already. Okay and if we have seen peak wokeness, what does the future look like? And I will be going over a lot of statistics in this episode.

A lot of them drawing from a blog by David Rizzuto where he wrote an article titled, Is the Great Awakening Really Winding Down?

And I will come to a conclusion that I think is different than the one he'll come to,

Would you like [00:04:00] to know more?

Malcolm Collins: and I'll just summarize the conclusion I'm going to come to, which is, I do think that wokeness is past peak in terms of general population popularity, however, I think that it's structured very differently than old systems of political correctness.

That we are essentially going to see wokeness intensify and exaggerate its effects within large bureaucratic bodies and become more and more obviously a unique and differential, basically moral, cosmological framework that will be seen all over the world. increasingly like a religion of the elite in our society.

And then the rest of us will feel very similar to what it would have felt like being a non Catholic and living under, say, a Catholic monarchy historically.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. I can totally see that.

Malcolm Collins: A, but we'll get to why this will happen in the statistics. So I sent you the article, Simone, if you want to pull it up.[00:05:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah. I have it in front of me right now.

Malcolm Collins: The first graph in the article, which is term frequency in popular US newspapers for the terms racist, and racism. And

Simone Collins: what

Malcolm Collins: we can see is that there was a huge peak in these terms around 2021. Warren. Near the beginning of that and since then it's been declining precipitously.

It's not back to base level again yet, specifically in the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal. And then if you look at you broaden these words, so they have other graphs here that I'll show on the screen. 1 includes. sexism, sexist, and misogyny. On this one, you do not see as much of a decline, which is interesting.

It basically plateaued at an extremely high level and is slowly going down. Homophobia and homophobic has basically just been going up over time, which is interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Transphobia and transphobic have been exploding. It looks like it's

Simone Collins: only just getting started, which [00:06:00] is weird because talking with the trans maxing community, they implied that they felt like we were already post peak trans.

So that's interesting.

Malcolm Collins: You can watch our episode on the, how the trans movement changed in 2024, which I think that we are within the general population, but not within the elite religious cast that rules our society and controls most of the media. And that's what this is looking at is media representations of these.

So if we look at Islamophobia and Islamophobic, they have declined precipitously and anti Semitism and anti Semitic declined precipitously and have shot up recently.

Simone Collins: Although I, here's my take on this. So if we just talk about racism, for example, I don't know how much it has to do with concern about racism, actually decreasing part of me thinks a lot of it has to do with the fact that Anyone who wouldn't completely tout the anti racist line in mainstream media already been purged by those initial spikes.

So there simply isn't anything in those main spheres [00:07:00] that can be discussed, it's basically already been burnt. The executions have been made, the books have been burnt, there's nothing left to comment on. I don't know if

Malcolm Collins: that's true.

Simone Collins: Really?

Malcolm Collins: You can look at the rise of the commenting on homophobia and homophobic and who's actually homophobic these days.

Like it's one of the things that I think that, yeah, they've expunged from their organizations, all of the people who aren't of their religious community, but the, uh, that, that doesn't mean. And by the way, just so people understand why I'm saying like, it's a religious community because this is a wider framework that probably requires some explanation.

They'll be like, no, they'll say they're Catholic or they're Muslim. And I've explained before that they actually have beliefs around, marriage structure, sexuality, our relationship to the environment, morality, what the future of our species should be, what happens after death. That is much more in common with each other than with their traditional religious structures.

They [00:08:00] just are allowed to identify with whatever they want, but it is really one cosmological and moral framework that draws its evidence. And they'll say it's drawing its evidence from science. And it's clearly not. You can look at the way it reacts to something like new research on the planet.

Trans individuals, and if it doesn't fall into the narrative, then it must be debunked. Frequently you'll point out certain ethnic groups commit crime at higher rates and other ethnic groups. And they're like, that isn't true. And I'm like it's clearly true looking at the statistics.

And they're like, yeah, but it's not true based on. Science or something right now. So what are they claiming? Because clearly it's not like science. It's something else that they're claiming. They're making another claim here. And the claim that they are making is based on a, if it's not from factual reality, but it is shared across this cultural group as a does it just a truism of reality.

It's a religious claim, the theological, and so that's why I'm calling it like a shadow religion that sort of exists in a spreading. Go to they then show more graphs here that I'll put on stage in turn that show the frequency [00:09:00] within U. S. news outlets and the U. K. news outlets.

And I don't think that these graphs show what He thinks they're showing in this piece, which is a decline. Instead, what I see, if you actually look at the graphs, is a shift in terms of the thing that they are currently most freaked out about. Racism didn't move to homophobia. Now it's moved to transphobia and before racism, it was Islamophobia and now you're getting more misogyny.

It's becoming a hot trend. And so I think it cycles through items to care about. One of the charts that always stuck with me the most was, it was a graph of BLM type reporting in media overlaid with United States election dates.

Simone Collins: Oh dear.

Malcolm Collins: All just an update. Lead up to elections. So another thing that I think I'm going to predict is any trends that we are seeing [00:10:00] downwards in terms of wokeness right now are going to start being reversed during this election cycle.

Simone Collins: Interesting. With

Malcolm Collins: the media and stuff like that. Do you have any thoughts before we go further?

Simone Collins: I'm very curious to see how the election cycle plays out in terms of woke concepts in the media. That's a very fun thing to be looking at, given the US election cycle. That is impending.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah so here's another interesting graph or what they did is they took an average of min max frequencies of terms related to prejudice and positive social justice discourse.

So there's 2 ways you can talk about social justice positively with words like, racial equality, social justice, diversity, equity, inclusion, inclusiveness, fairness, et cetera, safe space, awareness. And then there's negative terms like racism racist, sexism, sexist, misogyny, homophobia, et cetera.

And what is that these two actually rose at about the same rate, but we are seeing slightly more of a decline in negative terms, but they still seem really correlated. And I doubt this would meet a margin of error here.

[00:11:00] Which is pretty interesting. Now, I'm going to go to a, another graph that I don't have shared with you, which looks at the frequency of the terms.

This one was shared by Eric Kaufman. So in the first of these two graphs, what is the frequency this is from the data from the Stanford TV news database.

And you see the frequency of words like diversity, equity, harm, racism, sexism, white privilege. And what you see here is the cycle. What I was talking about, a rise in the term rate, then a drop in the term racism,

Simone Collins: but with everything

Malcolm Collins: else, it's pretty standard over time.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. If you just take out racism, It really seems like they've always been pretty big.

Malcolm Collins: But what you do see less of is actual cancellations happening. So here you look at five different databases of cancelled culture instances. Incidents from college fix NAS and fire you see them rising and then falling after [00:12:00] 2021. And you actually can see this as well. If you go to fires own website, which is really interesting.

So do you have thoughts on this before we go further?

Simone Collins: Yeah I I would want to see the basis for cancel culture incidents because cancellation has come to mean so many things. We have friends who are like, oh, I was canceled last night. It was just because people didn't take a comment.

They said really well. So I would just want to understand what this means.

Malcolm Collins: Here, I can show you exactly what it means. And I am putting in here another graph. Now this graph looks at students on WhatsApp students reported reluctance to discuss specific topics. And it goes over the years, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022.

And what's really interesting is over most of these graphs, 2022 is the lowest year other than 2019.

Except for politics. That's the one where you don't see much. So that's really [00:13:00] interesting to me. So you are actually seeing it on the ground difference. And here's another example. I'm going to read this quote that I thought was really, I don't know that when

Simone Collins: you look at non controversial topics, it looks like it.

It goes up in 2020. It seems like people just weren't willing to talk about anything. And part of this, I like that as a control because it could suggest a wider Oh yeah. And you see this in younger generations as well, also millennials and above people who do not want to express anything, even mildly controversial publicly, or even anything, any opinion, they just don't want to say anything and, Maybe that again means that there's not so much cancellation as we think people just don't want to be judged in our cowards.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Here's an interesting 1 because you're also talking about what does it mean? So this is from the scholars under fire database of 2000 to 2022 and I'm going to share so this shows how they felt discussing this shows specific incidents. So either a targeting incident of a teacher, [00:14:00] a petition, any sanctions, or a termination of a teacher for being not woke enough. And you see there was a huge spike in 2021 and then a rapid decrease. Now we're not back to baseline yet, but it is actually really interesting.

And what's also interesting is how big the type, the spike was in targeting incidents.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But don't you think. Again, that scholars have just come wise to this. So those who would get removed, I have been removed. And those who remain, those who survived the initial purge have learned how to avoid. What's

Malcolm Collins: interesting is a lot of the things that get them purged are things that happened a long time ago.

The Nick Bostrom Institute at Oxford got shut down recently. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that was over the humanities features. This is like the core E. A. Thing. And I'm pretty sure it was over some perceived racist comments. He said a long time ago that came out ages ago.

And recently there was a campaign around him. We're still seeing it happen. And I will read to you something that I thought was [00:15:00] really interesting. So this is a quote from 1 of the articles I was reading on this. For instance, the New York Times was recently targeted by glad in an open letter signed by dozens of celebrities and quote unquote thought leaders primarily for publishing stories about transgender issues that included.

Perspectives of people who did not simply celebrate and affirm progressive activist preferred narratives yet rather than issuing an apology and promising to quote unquote do better firing benching or reassigning the reporters and editors who produce the stories and slash or issuing editorial changes to help the paper conform with activist preferences downstream, which had been their playbook in the past.

The paper responded, quote, We received the open letter delivered by GLAAD and welcomed their feedback. We understand how GLAAD and the co signers of the letters see our coverage, but at the same time, we recognize that GLAAD's advocacy mission and the Times journalistic mission are different. Our journalism strives to explore, integrate, and reflect the experiences, [00:16:00] ideas, and debates in society to help readers understand them.

Our reporting did just that, and we're proud of it. Contemporaneously, hundreds of the current and former New York Times contributors pinned a separate open letter demanding a greater conformance with progressive activists preferred narratives, to which the paper responded even more forcefully, quote, It is not unusual for outside groups to critique our coverage or to rally supporters to influence our journalism.

In this case, however, member, or, Members of staff and contributors to the Times joined the effort. The protest letter included direct attacks on several colleagues, signaling them out by name. Participation in such a campaign is against the letter and spirit of our Essex policy. We do not welcome and will not tolerate participation by Times journalists in protests organized by advocacy groups or attacks on colleagues in a social media, in social media or other public forums.

I would never have expected the New York Times [00:17:00] wrote that

Simone Collins: well,

Malcolm Collins: that shows a major pushback to the UK, which is endorsed by the NHS. It was a major pushback to me. Yeah.

Simone Collins: That is major.

Malcolm Collins: They shut down a specific transgender clinics that were targeting. Teens and preteens being shut down in the UK to me shows a major shift in the public sentiment around this.

Actually it was interesting to me that I was reflecting on the Dave Chappelle trans joke that got him in so much trouble. For people who don't remember, it was like a bunch of different activists who represent the different marginalized groups, like gays, lesbians, trans, and stuff like that are in a car.

And the other ones are like, the trans person keeps asking to stop and use the restroom and the other ones are like, why did we even bring this person along? But, they've been with us forever. So we're going to keep them in. And that was like a fairly mild joke. And yet he tried to get super canceled for it.

And I was reflecting on if that joke could come out today and people try to get the special taken down on Netflix Inside people [00:18:00] within Netflix tried to get it taken down and do petitions. If that joke was done today, no one would bat an eye. Like I think society has really changed in the way it reacts to this stuff.

And what was interesting is Netflix also did a big thing of firings after that and got rid of a lot of the people who participated in that stuff. Which people were absolutely having aneurysms about. So I want to hear your thoughts before I give mine.

Simone Collins: You're starting to change my mind with this.

This is not data that I expected to see. And I missed a lot of the, these developments. So now I'm starting to wonder, gosh, are things actually changing? But then I'm also just thinking about how institutionally solidified these general ideologies are. And I think still, I have this intuition that so much of this is merely happening because.

It's, it has been, they've won, they've taken over. Once you've taken over, you don't need to keep using these buzzwords because the problems are no longer being manifested per their [00:19:00] opinion in their new reformed organizations.

Malcolm Collins: So I have a different read of what's going on and it's actually been heavily colored by.

Both what I see happening with the trans pushback and what I have seen happening with the Gamergate 2, like the reaction to Sweet Baby Inc.

Simone Collins: But keep in mind, in, in the earlier graphs that you highlighted transphobia was in the middle of a rising spike that is yet to abate.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that it is, but keep in mind that this is what's being published by newspapers.

The Gamergate 2, if you look at sales figures, it's basically been completely successful. Every game that these studios worked with these institutions on that were meant to like, woke ify the games, is either bombing or going to bomb. They're basically dead on launch. Which, Shows in mass consumers are not interested in these products anymore, which makes it very dangerous for organizations to now collude [00:20:00] with or work with, um, outsource DEI, which is never really

Simone Collins: successful in doing so.

I feel like as tired as the phrase go well, go broke goes. I never was under the impression. That, that games, movies, shows, books, et cetera, that decided to pursue this in an active way to the extent that they would pay for it, were ultimately commercially successful.

Malcolm Collins: No, before we knew about Sweet Baby Inc.

and stuff like that games that they worked on God of War, Ragnarok did pretty well, commercially speaking. Oh, really? Okay, so there are

Simone Collins: instances of Go Woke and Do Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah they were doing okay. Like they were seen as like corporate trash, but they did okay. And now, they are not. Keep in mind the Bud Light backlash that happened, for example.

Which was fairly effective, and I think did a fairly good job of scaring organizations about those types of partnerships in the future. But here's what I think happened and where I will agree with you, I think was in the [00:21:00] mainstream population of the US, right? Like the plebs. They're firmly anti woken and they actually view it as a threat and they will actually effectively boycott products that are caught engaging in it.

Like the target boycotts were fairly effective. If you see the way that they changed their status on this, but in the large bureaucratic organizations, they are true blue. To the core woke and they don't need to generate money in the way that small businesses do. So small businesses can't really afford to do anything woke anymore, right?

But if you're a large corporation like Microsoft, which produces a lot of games, they've been doubling down on their woke initiatives. Nintendo has been increasing its woke initiatives. And that is because these organizations are so large and have so much inertia behind them that their decisions can Are not going to be as affected by market pressures and so if you have a viral mimetic subset, which is good at replicating itself [00:22:00] was in the organization.

It doesn't matter that it is hurting the organization's efficiency. It's just going to continue to grow like a cult basically. And as you say, Okay. As they have been doing in places like the media and stuff like that, expelling anyone who speaks up. And I will point out here, all this is coming at the same time as media, like traditional media, newspapers, everything like that are doing worse and worse.

Nobody's reading this stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the question is, like, why don't they change? Why don't they stop? If no one's reading what, why did it take Kotaku so long before they finally said, okay, you're not writing articles about games. We're getting rid of you.

Simone Collins: Because they've been.

ossified by these organizational cancers to the extent that they are incurable, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that's my read. That's my read of what happened.

Simone Collins: That makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: And then the question is then what ends up happening? So there's a few potential futures. [00:23:00] 1 is that they really consolidate themselves was in the top of our society.

It's being shown that this sort of religious group. doesn't believe that people who are in it deserve the same human rights as people who are in it.

And they'll even strip them of their like ethnic identity. If a black person disagrees with them, they'll say you're not really black, or if a gay person disagrees with it, they're like you're not really gay. Like you, you keep seeing this, right? Or you're not really trans, whatever. So they don't really see the people within the group. It's not that they're denying that these people are same sex attracted.

It's they're denying that they're human. It's not that they're denying the melanin or heritage of these people. They're denying that they're human. That's why they don't count as a black person anymore. By this group's standards. They're a black

Simone Collins: enemy instead, you're saying?

Malcolm Collins: They don't see them as having independent thought anymore.

They believe everyone who doesn't agree with them, their very narrow range of thought, and again, to the South Park clip of the gods, like you, you'd be a rebel by doing everything we do.

Everyone's just walking around like a bunch of conformists. They're all zombies racing to their graves. Just an excuse for my mom to b***h at me for not wearing girly [00:24:00] clothes like all the other Britney Spears wannabes.

They're all a bunch of Nazi conformist cheerleaders. If you want to be one of the non conformists, all you have to do is dress just like us and listen to the same music we do. Shallow life.

Malcolm Collins: Doesn't have true independent thought and therefore cannot be seen as a source of information. And this level of dehumanization extends to voting.

And they really don't care. If, for example, if the US electorate wanted to regularly elect people like Trump, they would take the position that we just shouldn't have free elections in the US anymore because the electorate doesn't know what's best for it. And this is something that, and if people are like go falling at us, like we go to New York dinner parties for wealthy people.

Fairly frequently. This is not an insane thing to say that if the majority of this country was regularly electing people like Trump, that we should not respect their votes. And we should just install other people in power. If you want to talk about things like whatever, like voter fraud or something like that whether or not it happened is less important than that, there is the [00:25:00] will of the people.

To make it happen. If things persistently went in a different direction than the power players in our society today,

Simone Collins: and

Malcolm Collins: we know that these individuals are very involved in organizations like the CIA and the FBI due to the leaks that happened around Trump's presidential cycle, where you have people in these organizations, which basically have very little government oversight, saying if you're saying functionally, how could this happen, saying it is a national security threat to allow one of the presidential candidates to be allowed to be elected.

If you're thinking that there's no way anyone would ever act on that even if they didn't act on it last time, eventually they're going to act on it if they feel like, especially if this other group is growing in terms of their voice. And they're going to become increasingly aggressive. For example, if you look at something like the school system, I really don't think it's salvageable at this point.

I think they're going to become increasingly aggressive. At how they round the wagons with the university system as a pipeline for cultists who are going into these [00:26:00] old bureaucratic institutions. Meanwhile, the portion of society that is economically productive is going to begin to split from them.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is interesting. And so then what happens? Either they end up losing power just because they lose so much economic productivity and they become so comical. And so obviously, like a cult that the rest of the world is just yeah, we're not really engaging with you. You can go off and do your own thing, or they do consolidate positions of power within certain countries.

No, I don't think it'll be every country, but I can easily see it happening within some countries in Europe, for example. Could happen in the United States, but I think it's a little less likely that it'll happen in the United States. I think if they make a play, which I think they did do in the last presidential cycle with media and stuff like that where you can say even if they didn't directly influence votes, they definitely had a sustained media campaign.

That was based on a [00:27:00] fabricated reality. And if you don't believe this fabricated reality, you can look at something like the Trump Hillary election, where they basically said it was impossible for Trump to win electorally. This would be a means to position so much that there were articles when Nate Silver said he had a 5 percent chance to call for Nate Silver to be fired from his own organization for being such a bad poller and clearly republicanly biased and people made this call.

Because they were just reporting what all the other media was saying, which was a fabrication, a statistical fabrication. And this is one of these things where I get worried because I think if they overplay their hand, then the other side will play their hand. And there's been people who talk about, oh, this could lead to a civil war, some sort of like unrest within the United States.

I don't think it will go that far, but I do think it will lead to institutions forming that take the way our democracy is supposed to work much less seriously. [00:28:00] This could be things like stacking the Supreme Court. This could be things which the left mused doing already, just completely ignoring the way our system is supposed to work and the Supreme Court.

Like mainstream figures in the left, we're calling for this.

Simone Collins: That but hasn't the right been working on that for 20 years and succeeding?

Malcolm Collins: No. Did you understand what I mean when I say stacking the Supreme court?

Simone Collins: No, I don't know what you mean then.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, basically they said So we're just going to add a bunch of extra Supreme Court justices.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. So like literally changing its composition instead of overtime, ensuring that

Malcolm Collins: in the way the system is supposed to work, where you replace one at a time, literally just saying, okay, we control the branches of government right now that allow us to just put in a bunch of extra Supreme Court justices, we're going to do that.

And everybody, it was that, that would be bemused. Is just a blatant power grab. I think in January 6, we saw that the right was open to doing something similar. [00:29:00] Based on and in reaction to what they felt were unfair election results. If the left becomes more blatant, I think we saw a January 6 that there was the will among the base of the right to take action.

There are enough people in government, like people were like why didn't people in government like stand up to them where there are enough people within police forces and the military who think that things have gone too far, that you're not going to get a coordinated response to them. And I think that this is a really key thing that people are, I don't think in the U S we would ever have our police forces or the military.

Go against the federal government or legal things within the United States. We'd never have a coup or anything like that, but when you get a large mob of very angry people who believe that an election was unfairly taken from them, and we have seen that the right is capable of generating this, right?

If the mob is large enough, you need either [00:30:00] a military. Or a police force that will shoot at them when they're told to, okay? And I do not think that our military or police force would do that at scale. And that means that you will not have the organized resistance against something like that. Which is very interesting to me.

And it is also interesting to me that the two bureaucracies that the far left most needs, if they really s**t the bed are the two that are the most right leaning the military and the police force.

Simone Collins: That's comforting. I also think, it's important to point out that any dominance that woke me.

Ultimately secure in mainstream government and really large organizations is short lived due to demographical apps that there just won't be a population to support this over time. But we're talking not within our lifetimes or even our kids lifetime. So it's still relevant to us that this dominant.

Yeah, I'm

Malcolm Collins: thinking like the next 1020 years. Yeah. [00:31:00] So I think this is where we are that the non woke ism is the mainstream among the consumer base, but among the elite in our society, it is being increasingly collapsed in under a church or cult like organization that, that controls our society in the same way that historically, in the, for example, in the Ottoman empire, they ruled a lot of non Muslim people, but it was a Muslim monarchy.

And I think that's where we're heading.

Simone Collins: It reminds me a lot of. how many older, at least not just European all over the place. Civilizations were with this elite. That was completely the medically unmoored from the commoners. I guess there was a short lived period in which there was a little bit more alignment.

Maybe because in the United States, there wasn't as strict of a class divide to begin with just because things were still being formed, but I don't know. It, it doesn't seem unusual for there to be this [00:32:00] bifurcation and these different realities that people live by.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: So whatever, people are going to have their own little communities.

They're not going to understand each other and there will be conflict resulting from that, but nothing new and we've made it through before so we can make it through again.

Malcolm Collins: I love you to Desimone and I am so glad to be married to someone as sane as you. A rare breed. And it's funny. I think many people, they hear us call each other sane.

They're like, you two are not sane. I don't know. We're both

Simone Collins: in the same way, which means that just like with all the other groups that have fractured from reality, we fractured in the same direction, meaning that at least we're on each other's page, which is good. I

Malcolm Collins: love you so much.

Simone Collins: I love you

Malcolm Collins: too. All right.

Simone Collins: Keeping you waiting.

Malcolm Collins: Oh you're such a sweetheart, but you are making a human being after all, Simone safe,

Simone Collins: the human being has been made and printed, but [00:33:00]

Malcolm Collins: you're keeping her safe and I can't do every time you leave me with her for a little bit. I'm like, I'm going to kill this thing. I'm going to do something wrong.

I'm going to pick it up wrong. It can't even support a head.

Simone Collins: They feel super, super delicate and it's terrifying. Alright, I'm just switching to my proper mic. Oh! Hold on.

It's not plugged in. Now I can hear. Woohoo! Alright.

Malcolm Collins: Alright I am I shared in the comments for most of the graphs that we're gonna go over come from. Thank you. So I can take

Simone Collins: a look.

Malcolm Collins: And we're gonna go over graphs, which will be in this, and then we're gonna go over

Simone Collins: David Rosato. I'm not familiar with him.

Cool. I'm excited. This is going to be good.

Malcolm Collins: It's not like that bright of a post either, which is interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Huh. [00:34:00] Okay. Very nice.

Malcolm Collins: All right. You ready for me to get started? Let's do it.

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