CNN's chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about his new book, The Shadow War: Inside Russia’s and China's Secret Operations to Defeat America.

In this episode: Sciutto’s background and the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square Protests; being a foreign correspondent; working for the Chinese ambassador and returning to journalism; being a journalist at CNN in the Trump era; Americans’ post-Cold War delusions about Russia; why failures to recognize Russia and China as threats have been bipartisan; how both countries have made themselves adversaries of the US; what Russia has done beyond election hacking, including "kamikaze satellites"; China’s theft of state secrets; should we be making phones in China?; why AI is now a battlefield; what do Russia and China actually want, and what does defeat look like?; America's deeply partisan politics; the policy steps to end the shadow war; and the impact of Trump's trade war with China.

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