Dario Amodei is the CEO of Anthropic, the company that created Claude. Amanda Askell is an AI researcher working on Claude’s character and personality. Chris Olah is an AI researcher working on mechanistic interpretability. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep452-sc See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/dario-amodei-transcript CONTACT LEX: Feedback – give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey AMA – submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama Hiring – join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring Other – other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact EPISODE LINKS: Claude: https://claude.ai Anthropic’s X: https://x.com/AnthropicAI Anthropic’s Website: https://anthropic.com Dario’s X: https://x.com/DarioAmodei Dario’s Website: https://darioamodei.com Machines of Loving Grace (Essay): https://darioamodei.com/machines-of-loving-grace Chris’s X: https://x.com/ch402 Chris’s Blog: https://colah.github.io Amanda’s X: https://x.com/AmandaAskell Amanda’s Website: https://askell.io SPONSORS: To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts: Encord: AI tooling for annotation & data management. Go to https://encord.com/lex Notion: Note-taking and team collaboration. Go to https://notion.com/lex Shopify: Sell stuff online. Go to https://shopify.com/lex BetterHelp: Online therapy and counseling. Go to https://betterhelp.com/lex LMNT: Zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix. Go to https://drinkLMNT.com/lex OUTLINE: (00:00) – Introduction (10:19) – Scaling laws (19:25) – Limits of LLM scaling (27:51) – Competition with OpenAI, Google, xAI, Meta (33:14) – Claude (36:50) – Opus 3.5 (41:36) – Sonnet 3.5 (44:56) – Claude 4.0 (49:07) – Criticism of Claude (1:01:54) – AI Safety Levels (1:12:42) – ASL-3 and ASL-4 (1:16:46) – Computer use (1:26:41) – Government regulation of AI (1:45:30) – Hiring a great team (1:54:19) – Post-training (1:59:45) – Constitutional AI (2:05:11) – Machines of Loving Grace (2:24:17) – AGI timeline (2:36:52) – Programming (2:43:52) – Meaning of life (2:49:58) – Amanda Askell – Philosophy (2:52:26) – Programming advice for non-technical people (2:56:15) – Talking to Claude (3:12:47) – Prompt engineering (3:21:21) – Post-training (3:26:00) – Constitutional AI (3:30:53) – System prompts (3:37:00) – Is Claude getting dumber? (3:49:02) – Character training (3:50:01) – Nature of truth (3:54:38) – Optimal rate of failure (4:01:49) – AI consciousness (4:16:20) – AGI (4:24:58) – Chris Olah – Mechanistic Interpretability (4:29:49) – Features, Circuits, Universality (4:47:23) – Superposition (4:58:22) – Monosemanticity (5:05:14) – Scaling Monosemanticity (5:14:02) – Macroscopic behavior of neural networks (5:18:56) – Beauty of neural networks