In this episode, Simone and the host discuss Pakistan's recent ban on child marriages with the 2025 Islamabad Capital Territory Child Marriage Restraint Bill, which sets the legal age for marriage at 18. They explore the controversy surrounding the ban, particularly the pushback from Pakistan's Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), which labeled the bill 'un-Islamic.' The discussion delves into cultural, religious, and historical perspectives on child marriage in conservative Islamic societies. They also examine disturbing local practices such as exchanging young girls to settle feuds. The hosts analyze the religious texts and traditions that support child marriage and scrutinize the arguments from both sides. Additionally, they address broader cultural implications and ethical considerations, highlighting the need for nuanced understanding and the dangers of cultural imperialism.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today we are gonna have a spicy conversation. Pakistan did the unsinkable, or rather, something that should be non-controversial, which is banning child marriages. Oh. The country's primary like religious authority called the council of Islamic Theology.

Simone Collins: I'm picturing like a rounded table with a big globe icon.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no. What, what really happened was this,

Speaker: This is all wrong. How dare you? You have stolen my dreams People are suffering.

Malcolm Collins: And Greta Thornberg, of course, famous anti-Semite would go along and great with these people. But they basically came back and they said, this is Islamophobic. Is, is the term that has been used? It is, it is against the principles of Islam.

Wait. Hmm. Does Islam actually condone. Well, yeah, so I was like, I know there's the whole, like if you're on the internet and you're around like the, the anti-Islamic circles, uhhuh, like, oh, well he did, you know, get engaged to a girl when she was six and consummate the marriage when she was nine. This is Aisha.

No. And I had, and I had heard this and, and then I'd heard Muslims say, oh no, that's not true. Like look at the actual whatever. And so I just assumed. Angry internet, A CS being nerds, right? Like I was like, yeah, right. Like, come on, that's not real. Or I'm sure that there's like a nuance if you really dig into it, then

Simone Collins: well, maybe it's one of those things where like people just kind of forget their ages, so then you ask them how old they are and they're like, I don't know, nine.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so we are going to get into the evidence for both sides of this. Okay? But what I will say, what I didn't know is that in the conservative Muslim world, like if you're not in the West, almost everyone believes the nine age. Th this Islamic council almost certainly would believe the nine age, almost every major conservative Islamic council council, or I'd say every major conservative Islamic council particularly the SUNY ones, would go with the nine age.

So does

Simone Collins: this mean that in turn. It is considered normative or possibly even recommended that girls as young as nine get married.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Puberty is seen as the age. No

Simone Collins: puberty's getting earlier and earlier these days. So that's, I guess, nine territory. Let's,

Malcolm Collins: let's go into the data here. 'cause there's a lot to go over with this case and I think it's really, really interesting.

We're also gonna go into some unique practices in Pakistan. Ooh. Where they, trade young girls to end blood feuds with other families. So they will take you know, like their 9-year-old daughter or whatever, and basically give them to another family for marriage for, for one of their life. A family

Simone Collins: with which they have a blood feud.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: So, you know, this kind of reminds me of you know how Alexander the Great was raised in a. In an antagonistic court, right? As like, yeah. I don't, I don't

Malcolm Collins: think that that I, I, I assume that in a lot of these cases they're pretty severely abused, but we will get into this. Oh yeah. Actually, I've

Simone Collins: listened to some very, very long interviews with women who've been in situations like these, so I'm not super ready for this.

But let's go.

Malcolm Collins: We won't get into too many horrifics specifics. Just generalities and things that have been caught by the public and stuff by that. Okay, so in May, 2025, Pakistan's National Assembly and Senate passed the Islamabad Capital Territory Child Marriage restraint Bill, a landmark legislation aimed at curbing child marriages by setting the minimum legal age for marriage to 18 for both males and females.

In Islamabad, the bill criminalized cohabitation with minors as statutory grape with penalties of up to seven years in prison and fines of at least 1 million Pakistani rues or around. 2,600 pounds. However, the Council of Islamic Ideology, CIIA Constitutional body, so again, this isn't like some weirdo council, this is part of the cons constitutional body that advises the Pakistani government on the compatibility of its laws 'cause Islamic principles declared the bill quote unquote un-Islamic on May 27th, 2025.

The CII argued that provisions defining marriage under 18 as child abuse. Describing punishments were not was in Islamic jurisdictions. They also noted that the bill was not sent to them for review before its passage. I find that very interesting that they assumed that it would have been. And apparently they had killed similar bills multiple times in the past.

Wow. So they big mad about this. They argue you check with

Simone Collins: them the nerve.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They argue that Islamic law does not set a specific minimum age for marriage with some clerics suggesting that puberty, which can occur as early as nine. And was obviously the prophet as precedent, you know, literally nine is considered okay for them is sufficient for marriage eligibility.

And I did ask ai, and AI said that your, your average Pakistani by far would believe that Aisha was nine. It's just sort of the, the western ones who would think something different are the ones who are involved in like online arguing with atheists. Historical context. This is not the first time the CII has opposed child marriage bans in 2014 and 2016, similar bills were deemed quote unquote un-Islamic and quote unquote blasphemous blasphemous mind you, not just Islamophobic leading to their withdraw.

The CII has also made controversial rulings, such as suggesting de i evidence is inadmissible in grape cases. Why do you just want grape to happen? Like.

Simone Collins: That I just don't think it's really seen as such. I mean, I just, in, in a lot of these, I mean Okay, and I'm pulling from interviews from Pakistani women who on YouTube have done like long form interviews of their experience growing up as child brides, essentially like in houses of their in-laws.

They're not really. They're not, they're treated this, ah, they're treated like the level of worse than, than your average American would treat a pet dog. Yeah, that's what I've heard in terms of like, and so like this idea that like, you could, because I think even most people and we've, you know, bring it back sexual relationship with, with with a dog like I think most people we're not

Malcolm Collins: pro that.

She's joking. We're not pro

Simone Collins: that. What I'm saying is that even most Americans who do. Gross things with dogs by our standards. Do so with consensual dogs. But even the, the Pakistani young girls in these households are not given that standard which is really screwed up.

Malcolm Collins: So sorry. I should know that what Simone is talking about here.

70% of people in the United States who engage in bestiality believe that the animals consenting whether or not animals can consent. It's one of those things that I actually find to be pretty stupid, like obviously like a dog anyone knows. Well, I feel like

Simone Collins: if the dog's running away,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, like the dog doesn, you know, if, if you have to, if you have

Simone Collins: to physically restrain an animal or if the animal's running away, or if you are drugging the animal, there is probably not consent.

If the animal, I can't believe

Malcolm Collins: that we're arguing for. I'm just trying to point out, like, to me it seems ridiculous to be like dogs. I, I guess in the way that like a child can't consent. 'cause a child could say that they want something that they don't actually want. So I think we need to put consent in multiple categories here, right?

Like,

Simone Collins: yeah, like if you put peanut butter on your junk. And they, is it consent or was just

Malcolm Collins: like they couldn't say no. Is is, you could say the same about children, right? Mm-hmm. So I, I, I would, sorry. Well, you could

Simone Collins: say the same thing about the grooming gangs as well. Like those women were love bombed, like they got into all of that.

Well, yeah. A lot of them get

Malcolm Collins: into it technically with consent, but Totally. But the point I'm making here, Simone, mm-hmm. Is, is if you consider dogs like children but I don't think you should, because the reason why a child cannot mean. Gainfully consent is because at a future time, they will be at a higher intellectual development level.

That's true. Where they might, yeah. You can't expect that

Simone Collins: of a dog.

Malcolm Collins: Something they made in the past, Uhhuh. It's not that a child can't actively say I want something, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This, this makes us look so bad and later in this, I'm gonna actually argue that, I don't know if you should ban child brides Tim and Malcolm, that we're just gonna look so bad in this episode.

And, and I would note here to, for, for anyone who wants to like take us outta context or something like we are. Absolutely against bestiality. I think it is really not a good thing. But I, I tried to add a context there just to be like intellectually consistent in the way we're approaching.

We're trying

Simone Collins: to have an intellectual conversation here, which is unmoored from our personal proclivities and morality. We're just trying to be like weighing the calculus. If,

Malcolm Collins: if either of us was actually into that, we would not be. We'd probably not be

Simone Collins: openly talking about it. No, we'd not be talking

Malcolm Collins: about it.

I'd be too scared that it would get out. You know it. God,

And again, I wanna be clear, we find this personally, , revolting and culturally revolting. But, , I have to call out the moral inconsistency of saying that an animal can't consent to this. But then we forcibly breed animals with other animals as a matter of due course, and nobody cares. Or we forcibly kill animals for their food and obviously we don't care when they consent to that.

the other thing that the council had registered before is that men do not need their wives permission for a second marriage that is hyper abusive.

Simone Collins: No, but that's also hyper normalized.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. It was in Islamic Way. It happens

Simone Collins: all the time. Yeah.

Are you kidding me? Like, this is not surpri this shouldn't be surprising to people.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I, well, again, we've gotta, well, at the end of this, we'll analyze, this was in the cultural context of Islam, but let's keep going here. Okay. Yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Some religious story also, though,

Simone Collins: I, I, I just wanna say though, like, whoa, it's actually really big that they're doing this, considering how normalized these things are.

Like, well, I fired what's going on. This

Malcolm Collins: a form of western cultural imperialism.

Simone Collins: That's what I'm, I'm assuming the urban monoculture has taken over the political class. No, the UN

Malcolm Collins: basically threatened them and, and said, you have to do this. Well, we'll get into this.

Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. Ver okay, because. Yeah, like this doesn't seem like politically representative of the voting population, so

Malcolm Collins: No, it's, it's not.

Okay. Okay. So EE even mainstream parties like the JUIF the Jihad El Islam fuzzy has opposed to Bill with leader Mullen Fazar Raham announcing protests, claiming the law. Quote makes fornication easier. End quote. Here, basically he's saying,, look, we plan to have sex with these people anyway who are below X Age, you know, it's just the, you know, they, they're, they now won't be our wives. Right. We we're, we're still gonna force, you know, like we're still gonna force.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: Now, now, but you're basically, you are forcing us to break Islamic law when before we were totally fine. What are you doing? Yeah. You're making sinners of us.

Malcolm Collins: And within their cultural context. It is true. I mean, I think the way Islam treats women is abhorrent. And when I say Islam, I don't mean all Islam.

I mean, the majority of Islam was in these regions. Yeah, no, there's, there's, there's forms of Islam that are like Totally, yeah. Whatever in Unobjectionable. Yeah. But I think that. What, you know, in the west is, is glossed over is those forms of Islam are not what is practiced in, in, in countries like Pakistan normatively, right?

Mm-hmm. The more slave with the government body saying, oh, you can just marry a second wife, doesn't matter what the first wife said, oh, you know, on great kits DNA doesn't count. We just normalizes. Like, you should be able to do this. That the, the, the, you know, the, the, oh, well, I mean now you're forcing us, you're forcing us.

To have sex outside of marriage. It's like, no, we're not forcing, maybe stop doing it with children.

Simone Collins: My

Malcolm Collins: bro.

Simone Collins: Just a thought. That's a great idea.

Malcolm Collins: Thanks for thinking of that one. Okay. A 2018 demographic survey found that 29% of girls in Pakistan are married before the age of 18. Equating to nearly 30 million women, approximately 30% of the female population.

Simone Collins: 25%. That's crazy. Mm-hmm. Could you imagine. If that many women got married under the age of 18 in the us Hold

Malcolm Collins: on, hold on. It gets worse. 4% of girls and 5% of boys married before the age of 15. 15. What percent,

Simone Collins: hold on, hold on.

Malcolm Collins: Did I hear that right? 4% of girls are marrying before the age of 15.

Simone Collins: 4%. 4%.

Malcolm Collins: That is crazy.

Pakistan ranks among the top 10 countries globally. For the absolute number of women married before 18 UNICEF 2018 report indicates 18% of women 20 to 24 were married before 18. 4% before 15. And in 1993 this is the big decline because it used to be nearly double that, so it used to be nearly 40%.

What is interesting is Pakistan has the lowest prevalence of child marriage in South Asia after Sri Lanka, but it remains widespread, particularly in rural areas. So these numbers are low compared to other Muslim countries in this region. And then it talked about practices like Sari Arvani, the marrying off of girls to settle disputes, which are common within some regions.

The girls involved in this are. As young as five to nine.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So, and keep in mind I wanted what, what, wait, what is this? I wanna, I wanna know what, what are these practices? And keep in mind these families like blood, blood, that means that like these families have a fight where like.

Somebody was like, murdered and they're looking so they're mad at these girls. Right. And these girls are typically the daughters or the sisters of the person that instigated the blood dispute.

Simone Collins: Right? Of the murderer, theoretically, yeah. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: the murderers. So they are not going to be treated well by their mother-in-laws or the families they're moving into, or these family networks.

Th th this is basically an s slave that that's what's happening here. A, a child.

Simone Collins: And what do they get? What does the, originally Aggressing family get in exchange for giving away one of their daughters settlement of, they probably don't value that much anyway,

Malcolm Collins: settlement of the, the, the blood.

Simone Collins: So just like, okay, now you're not allowed to kill us back.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. Well, okay, so, to go into these practices in more detail. UAA Pashton term, meaning writing, or on the back of a practice where a girl, often a minor, is given to a rival family to settle a blood feud, typically involving murder or honor disputes. This could be like they had engaged one girl to the family and the first girl ran away because she didn't wanna be forced to marry them.

Hmm. That would probably count within this category. This girl is married to a man from the aggrieved family to restore peace symbolically, quote unquote, carrying the burden of reconciliation. So they put the burden of reconciliation for the entire family on a minor,

Simone Collins: like a literal scapegoat.

Yeah, just put the sin on the goat,

Malcolm Collins: send the goat

Simone Collins: off,

Malcolm Collins: kid. Wow. VNI Punjabi term meaning voice or speech, similar to uaa. Vni involves giving a girl in marriage to settle disputes, but it's more common in the Punjab. It can also be used to resolve financial debts or other conflicts such as land disputes or perceived dishonor.

Decision making disputes are often mediated by a gra, a tribal council of male elders. Or community leaders, the GRA determines the number and age of the girls given. So sometimes you have multiple girls being given from one family to another. Sometimes as young as five to nine years old, though marriage may be cons consummated later, often at puberty.

So, and keep in mind the great prophet did this. So he, he married Aisha at six, but he waited because he, he had like a, a lot of restraint. Until she was nine, at least by this one interpretation, which we'll get into. I remember I, I was talking to Simone about this and I was like, man, that, that Jesus he you know, at least, at least our prophet was not, I.

Doing it was minors like a apparently, and you're like, that doesn't seem to be a high bar. And I'm like, well, you know, we've got Mohamed and Joseph Smith there. You know, like a a, apparently it's a bar that, you know, when you get into the prophet territory, a lot of people are like, rules that, no, you know, you got, you got even freaking Gandhi sleeping in the same bed with, to, they just

Simone Collins: keep throwing themselves at these men.

What can we say? They, they just want it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh, so bad. So.

Selection of girls. Girls are typically chosen from the offending family or clan, often daughters, sisters, or cousins of the person responsible for the dispute. In some cases, multiple girls are given to strengthen the reconciliation marriage arrangement. The girl is forcibly married to a man from the rival family, often with without her consent or with the consent of her immediate family.

So this is like basically determined by a local court and a girl is, is taken from the family often. These marriages are legally registered in some cases, but frequently bypass age purification, exploiting weak enforcement of marriage laws. Social context. The practice is driven by poverty, illiteracy, and rigid gender norms, families in debt, or embroiled in feuds, Macy Sahari, ASI as a way to avoid violence or financial ruin.

Well, but

Simone Collins: I mean, it's, it just like the, the level dehumanization that's taking place here is extremely disturbing. I.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. In, in 2023, a 7-year-old girl in SWAT was given to settle a murder dispute, sparking protests by local activists.

The marriage was delayed until she reached 15. But the case highlighted, so, and this is happening, and then people found out about it, right? But this was for a murder case too. Like what did she have to do with that? What did a what An immoral religious system that would allow this now note here.

Again, not all Muslims. This is one cultural system and I believe that cultures have the right to self-governance. But I think that we need to be aware when we are importing people from these cultures, how culturally distant they are from us and understand that they are likely not going to understand, like the grooming gang phenomenon from their cultural perspective is a completely normal thing.

Like yeah. They, if anything, they're being extra respectful. I mean, they're waiting until these girls are like 16. You know, no, that's, that's the ba basically hag maxing you know, that's, that, that's, that, that is, that is what they're doing from their perspective. They're, why are you guys mad at this?

I let her walk around the house without chains some days. You know, anyway. In Punjab's UR District 2024 aji a ordered three girls age nine to 13 as VNI to resolve a land dispute. Oh, the case overturned after intervention by a local NGO and media coverage. But this is what, what's normal until it's like caught.

But three girls for land is.

Simone Collins: Well, and that's, I mean, it also makes, I mean, it, you have to question what their home life is like anyway. I mean, basically I, I'm getting this impression that parents are just kinda disappointed when they have daughters. And this is something that's reflected in the interviews I've seen with women who've been through this process where their home life wasn't great either.

Like their parents did not value them. And, you know, they, I mean, it was obviously worse at their in-laws, but. You know, like from day one, they've not been valued as humans, which is also deeply disturbing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and it's something that from my cultural background, I'm just never going to be able to emulate what it's like to think like that, you know?

Yeah, I really,

Simone Collins: I, so my problem is that I in turn, deeply dehumanize anyone who would do that to any class of people. I don't care if it's men or women or slaves or a certain group, a religious group, or an ethnic group, like whatever, like I. I see them and I'm like, okay, we're don't come close to me.

To be clear here, she is not talking about Muslims because not all Muslims treat women this way. She is talking specifically about groups, regardless of their religion that treat women in this way.

Simone Collins: Well know.

And I

Malcolm Collins: hear about atrocities happening in these regions and I'm like, yeah, but aren't those the ones who like trade little girls and, and treat women like slaves? Like, I don't mind so much. And this is, this is one of the things where people are like man, that's a problem. Right? Because like, I don't, I don't think it is a problem.

I know, I mean,

Simone Collins: a dehumanization just leads to. Increasingly bad stuff. I, I just, no,

Malcolm Collins: I, I think what it allows is for us to not meddle in their business. You know, like, I don't, I don't, this is their culture. It's been their culture for a

Simone Collins: thousand years. I know, I know. Like the, the general place where I settle in with all this is like, alright, I have to flourish.

I have to win. I have to create such an amazing legacy culture and civilization going forward that anyone who doesn't convert into it and become. Like convert away from these bad practices would be insane because this is just so the obvious

Malcolm Collins: right choice. No, no, no. But the problem is, is is what we're seeing it because the urban monoculture is like, oh, that's what we're doing, but they're not doing that, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like they're showing that when people deconvert from these, these groups, they stop having kids. Right. So that's the problem.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You know, if your system isn't working. People can be like, oh, so you're a cultural relativist. I'm not in all a cultural relativism. I, I believe my culture is superior, but I also believe that the superiority of my culture is shown through time.

It's shown through, through, yeah.

Simone Collins: Through higher birth rates and through long-term human flourishing. The problem with the urban monoculture is it puts an end to a lot of, we'll say human atrocities. But then it subsequently what's the word? Sterilizes and kills off everyone who converts in. So it's like, oh, you have it good until we like shoot you in the head and then you're gone.

No, I think,

Malcolm Collins: I think it actually creates a pro a, a secondary problem, which is it creates the per. That if you try to put the, the rules in social norms of our country into this region that it, it, it, you know that these people are just going to follow them in the way that people from, from our cultural background follow them.

Mm. And I, and that's why they have this belief of they can just import immigrants from these regions. And, and all of this is just gonna poof, go away. Mm-hmm. But they believe that they're going to just completely eradicate their cultural background. And, and, and one that's a psychotic thing to believe because you're, you're, you're, you know, demanding basically cultural genocide of these various genders and, and sexual norms.

But, but, but two, it, it just functionally doesn't happen. You know, these people have, have lived alongside this for centuries. And, you know, this was something we saw with, with soldiers in Iraq and, and the, common practice there of sleeping with boys. And they, they kept trying to stop it and people were like, what are you doing?

Like, this is normal here, right? Like, just let us have our fun man. Like, why, why are you being such a stick in the mud about it? And, and the same way that you know. The soldiers may have seen the Iraqis looking at them for drinking, right? Like, you know, I, I know from your cultural perspective this is bad, but it happened to me when I was a young boy, and I'm totally fine now.

So let's continue the cycle. But again, I think that you, you know, you, the problem with, you know, it. Having these like absolute cultural norms is because we live in the age of the urban monoculture now, which means that the urban monoculture can define whatever it wants as abuse or an atrocity. Mm-hmm.

It can define making pictures of beautiful women an atrocity, you know? Mm-hmm. Oh, we gotta the UN's claim to ban anime. Right. It can, it can traditional gender roles as an atrocity, you know, even within like a Western context. It can say the idea that a, a person is born, a gender is an atrocity, right?

Like this used to work when, when, when sane culture was the dominant culture. But we don't live in that world anymore. So we can't rely on these systems, which is why it makes more sense to fight for cultural sovereignty and people can be like. What about kids? And this is why I'm like not okay with child brides actually, at least within a Western context, is because it breaks one part of cultural sovereignty, which is to say that you can leave a cultural tradition when you're fully myelinated and mature.

Simone Collins: Right. And if you are married when you hit 18, and you should be able to get, you're married, often

Malcolm Collins: have a bunch of kids when you're 15, right? You're not free

Simone Collins: anymore. You're not free. You're

Malcolm Collins: not really free. Yeah. You can't really leave at 18. You can't really make a decision at 18. Mm-hmm. Whereas with other things like say circumcision I think that this is, or, or corporal punishment or you know, raising your kids outside of this public school system to believe that certain things about like sexual norms or deviant that mainstream society doesn't see all that I think is fought right.

Because none of that prevents them from leaving at 18. Mm-hmm. I also have a, would have a strict rule. Against any culture that threatens to kill somebody who leaves which a number of Islamic countries. It's very normalized. But first we're gonna argue, go into why they argued that child marriage was part of Islamic culture.

Or, or religion. Okay. Koranic silence On minimum age, the Koran does not explicitly set forth a minimum age of marriage versus like surah on Nisa five, six discusses guardianship of orphans until they are mature enough for financial responsibility, which some scholars interpret as implying readiness for marriage at puberty.

The CII and conservative scholars. Argue that since the Koran does not prohibit child marriage, it is permissive under Sharia, provided the girl has reached puberty, often defined as Minche around nine to 15 years. A prophetic example a key reference is a marriage of the prophet Muhammad to Aisha reported in Haddi.

I'm not even gonna try to say those words. As occurring when Aisha was six and consummated at nine. Conservative scholars, including the CII cite this as a precedent allowing marriage at or before puberty. I. They argue that the prophet's actions are a model for Muslims. And since seventh Century Arabia accepted such marriages, they remain valid Today puberty is readiness.

Islamic Juris puts FIC across multiple schools. I. Ha, Hanif, mif, Sharifa and Hana Bali traditionally links marriage eligibility to puberty, not a fixed age for girls. Puberty is often marked by menstruation and for boys by physical maturity. EG ejaculation. The CII argues that setting minimum wage of 18 as, is Lama bod a child marriage Bill would contradict his flexibility imposing a Western standard that in ignores biological and cultural differences, which I would agree are there. And, and we do need to recognize parental authority. I. Sharia Grants parents or guardians wali a significant authority to arrange marriages for minors, especially girls, to protect family honor and economic stability.

Some scholars claim this ensures girls are married into stable families before they face risks like premarital relationships. The CII has suggested that child marriage when arranged by parents. Aligns with Islamic values of chastity and family cohesion. Cultural context in Pakistan, conservative scholars argue the child marriage is a cultural norm In rural areas, the Islamic law should accommodate local practices rather than impose universal age limits.

They claim laws like an Alana Bob will disrupt social harmony and criminalize traditional families. Just some notes on why this is so bad of the girls who do this according to who in 20, 20, 30% die. In, in often childbirth that and 70% are illiterate and abuse rates are really common.

So now let's go specifically to the Kisha Aisha. 'cause I was like, wait, what? Like, so first, who believes, like, what categories of Muslims believe Iisha was 12 to 19? Okay. Again, not Okay. But what categories believe she was six to nine? Okay. So progressive Muslims, doctors like Reza Aslan, and Dr.

John S. Brown. In nuanced discussions in organizations like Muslims for progressive values, often argue for the older age Westernized Muslims. Some traditional scholars, certain traditionalists, especially in South Asia except older estimates based on alternative sources. Though this is extremely uncommon she scholars some as she sources suggest ISO was older, 10 to 14.

That's not that much older. Although views very deemphasize her role compared to Sunni narratives. Now for the younger age, conservative Sunnis. Oh,

Simone Collins: so Shia you mean

Malcolm Collins: what Iisha. Shia,

Simone Collins: you said she

Malcolm Collins: No she, she sources is she, it's not, she. Or it might be Shia. Oh, Shia. Sorry, I was reading that wrong.

Shia. Okay. Okay. She has some Shia scholars. Okay. So it's not all Shia scholars, but there are like almost all conservative Sunni Go is a six to nine age. And you'll understand why in a second it's like basically part of their religion. It is upheld in most traditional conservative SUNY institutions, including Alazar, Egypt, Dara, Alun, Damon India, and many Saudi scholars.

Based on the Shia Haddi most conservative courts and institutions and general public and conservative regions in rural Pakistan where literacy is low and traditional scholarship dominates the six to nine age is rarely questioned. Now oh my

Simone Collins: gosh, this is so, like overwhelmingly most people are like, yeah, she

Malcolm Collins: was

Simone Collins: a

Malcolm Collins: kid.

And they're like, yeah, and he's a prophet. That's is normal. But if they have a completely different view of women in these cultures, right, right. And I think they need to understand that, that you can say, okay, now do things my way, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna happen, you know?

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like when people have, they raise dogs as like, show dogs.

And they're like, well, when is she old enough to, you know. Start breeding purebreds. Like it's a very different, like is she functionally able to Okay. Good to go. Like I'm, I'm seeing that kind of level of logic. Yeah. I always

Malcolm Collins: found that to be a very interesting thing about consent is they don't ask about dogs and consent when you're breeding them.

Yeah. They don't ask about dogs and consent when, you know, some cultures kill to eat them. Yeah. You know, like. Sorry, this is like, I should you just keep bringing it back. Bringing it back, because I have literally zero horse in this race and this can only serve to hurt me. I am just trying to be logically consistent.

Well, I'm just,

Simone Collins: I mean, we're, what we're discussing though is the dehumanization of a class of human to the level of being. And so we're, we're looking at other examples in which people manage someone else's life, an intelligent being's life. And the most common scenario in which humans are pervasively managing other intelligent beings lives are through pet relationships, especially dog relationships in United States.

Malcolm Collins: Interestingly, I think a lot of things that are done to women in these countries would be illegal to be done to pets. Oh, no.

Simone Collins: 100%. 100%.

Malcolm Collins: So authoritarian, haddi and this is, this is the arguments for, so now we're gonna try to go through ourselves and see if we can determine what was Aisha's age, because I always try to give religions a benefit in the, Ooh, it's time for

Simone Collins: investigation.

Malcolm Collins: I had just jumped on the more progressive western thing. I was like, ah, I usually hear it from people with like an ax to grind. You know, so whatever, right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, who

Simone Collins: knows If it was like normalized back then, you know how like your mother was like, what, 39 for? Many years, like a decade, you know?

Yeah. Maybe girls were like, you know, six for like 16 years. I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: So the most compelling evidence comes from the Hadith in Sahi Al Bakari and Sahi Muslim considered the most authentic collections in Sunni Islam. Mm-hmm. These. Explicitly state Ayisha's age, providing direct and widely accepted textual basis.

Exact quotes. Sahi Al Bakari. The prophet married Ayisha when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old and they remained together for nine years until his death. Shahi Muslim. Then for another quote, Ash reported Allah apostate married him when I was six years old and I was admitted into his house when I was nine years old.

The strengths, these haddi are classified as shahi authentic with strong chains of narration in Saad, making them nearly indisputable from the perspective of traditional SUNY scholarship. They are cited by major scholars like Imam Nwe and Iban ha Kahari as reliable in context like CIA's rulings.

Such haddi are foundational for arguing. Child marriage is permissible as they reflect the prophet's practice sooner. Consistency across multiple sources. Beyond Bakari and Muslims, other Haddi collections and biographies collaborate the six to nine age, reinforcing its re reliability through multiple narrators and texts.

Sunni Abba Ashish said the messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old and consummated the marriage when I was nine years old. Iban Hassan, the life of Muhammad while not explicitly stating Aisha's age, it confirms her to be young age, noting she was a young girl at the time of marriage.

Strengths, the repetition of Ashish's age across multiple sources like Abi d, Tim, and IL Bar. With similar narration from Ashi herself suggest consensus among early narrators. Conservative scholars like those from Pakistani Hanif tradition argue such consistency outweighs speculative revisions As the narrators were close to Ashish's time.

Cultural memory. Early Muslim values, precise memorization, especially of prophetic traditions. Scholars underwent rigorous training to preserve reports and narration. Like Hashi, iar and were trusted for their proximity to Aisha. So what

Simone Collins: you're saying is you looked at the evidence hoping to find like, oh, it was fuzzy.

We don't remember it really Well, this is like a game of telephone and it kept getting And you're like, actually no. Everyone's like, no, no, no. We're like really, really, really careful. We're like, really?

Malcolm Collins: So, so, no. It came. So one of these traditions is directly from her own mouth. It is her account of the prophet's life.

But what I'm noting here is these traditions, they, they practice a strict chain of passing down information where you were supposed to remember like. As a religious order word per word. And, and this has been studied in cultures that have oral traditions. Mm-hmm. How exactly are they passed down?

And you actually see a really high degree of fidelity within oral traditions Wow. That have this value set. And you can see this fidelity respected. And sorry, and reflected in the fact that multiple of these hads that are used by different schools all have this exact same age. The, the speculation that she was older did not come until modern times.

But then there's the other big issue here, which is early marriage was standard practice in pre-Islamic and early Islamic Arabia. Judicial license, tribal license, and the need to reproduce her age aligns with those cultural norms. Which is, which is. True. Right? Like, this, this would not have been a weird thing.

It's more that it's a problem because of a modern context and understanding of this stuff, not because of the context at the time.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Again, yeah, if it was

Simone Collins: super normalized at the time, that makes it even harder to argue against. Like, this is just how it was done. Right.

Malcolm Collins: It would be weird if he did.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: It'd be weird if he didn't do it, because that's what you just did then.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I mean it, so to keep going here I. She herself was the primary narrator of the Haddi, stating her age, leading credibility to the account as a firsthand report, her lack of objection and her later prominence as a scholar suggests the marriage was socially accepted.

So she also became an important Muslim in the early days of Islam and was very open about this, apparently.

I'd also note that we don't have a single Islamic scholar on record anywhere before the 19th century arguing that she was older than this six to nine age. This is a completely modern argument and phenomenon.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, so how do people argue against this? I. Okay, so first argument historical records suggest Aisha was born before the prophets of first Revelation six 10, CE making her older than six at the time of Betrothal six 19 to 6 22.

Her sister, as she's age, provides a key reference point. Mm-hmm. So, tabs History ninth Century volume 39. Ashima, the daughter of Abbu, aka was 10 years older than her sister Ash. She, yeah. Except this is coming from the ninth century, bro. Like that's way later. Ivar in Castillo and, and, and, and way later than the other sources that they're saying are too late to use the sources.

Asma died in 73 the 6 92 CE at the age of 100. Meaning that she was 27 to 28 during the Hira. This implies hir was 17 to 18 at the time. Strengths, if Asma was 27 to 28 in 6 22, Ash, she being 10 years younger, would be 17 to 18. Aligning with the marriage age of 15 to 19 at 12 to 15 scholars like Malalan, Muhammad Ali.

Use this to argue that actually it was likely 15 Epi Petrosal in 18 to 19 at consummation. The problem with this is you're arguing against a consensus in tons of religious oral traditions and written traditions based on. Oral traditions and like single oral and religious traditions that are shakier than them, and relying on two chains of evidence being correct, one, the age difference between her and her sister.

And two her, her, her sister's age of birth. Mm-hmm. Which to me seems like way weaker than the other argument chain. Next Ash's participation in battles like Barar 6 24 or a 6 25. Suggests that she was physically and intellectually mature, likely in her mid-teens as young children are not typically involved in such roles.

Yes. We've never seen Islamic child soldiers. That is not a phenomenon that exists. I, I'm joking there because it's incredibly common. I. Sahi Al Bakar Ashi accompanied the prophet during the battle of UDA carrying water for the fighters and tending to the wounded I hassar SRA notes Ashish's presence in military campaigns implying a level of responsibility and consistent with a 9-year-old that is not at all inconsistent with a 9-year-old from these regions.

It's not saying she was a warrior, it said she carried water to the warriors. And helped tend to the wounded. That's exactly the type of thing a 9-year-old would do in one of these regions during a war. Yeah. Like you're applying a modern cultural context onto the past, like this isn't even a piece of evidence.

If anything, it further suggests her her age being around nine. Totally. They're saying this suggests that she must earn 14 to 16 during this, which is what they need her to be. For the 15? No, the

Simone Collins: kind of like water, water fetching errands is total 9-year-old work, like six to six to 10-year-old work.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. So terrible argument there. Okay. Health relatability and narrative discrepancies. The Haddi states Ashish's age rely on a single narrator. Heran Bahe Iran, who reports from later in life in Iraq are questioned for inconsistencies. Alternative sources lack specific ages, allowing for older estimates.

No direct quote disputes, ham's narration, but Dr. Jonathan Brown. In Mohammad's Legacy, page 1 47 notes, Hiram Abba Iran's reports on ashe's age were transitioned transcribed late in his life. And some scholars like Malik questioned their accuracy due to memory and old age. So you're basically saying your core religious texts are inaccurate and none of the people around him noticed that he, he went from a 15-year-old age for one of the prophet's wives to a 6-year-old age or a, a, a and a 9-year-old concept.

That seems like a big detail that other people would be like, oh yeah, I've been hearing this guy talk about this my whole life. This 9-year-old thing and this 6-year-old thing. There's like a big, let's. Take that out, you know? No, nobody thought this was wrong at the time when it was being recorded, and there would've been a wide cultural memory was in this region if it of it was long after the prophet's death because it was a popular religion.

It's not like was Jesus where you had such a small community. And, and the regions in which it really started to grow were not the regions where Jesus was preaching the most. Right. This is, this is like way stronger direct evidence. And so I don't, I don't buy that either.

I'd also note here I find it really disingenuous that they're acting like this is just one guy who might have like, misremembered stuff. This was an entire religious tradition that was dominant in that city. , It wasn't one guy. , , the probability that they messed up that monumentally when making these, , transcriptions , it's totally unrealistic.

Malcolm Collins: And then they, there's the ethical and contextual reinterpretation that it was just unethical, but it wasn't unethical within the context.

We, we know from Quran, Soran, ALSA test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. If you find them to be mature in understanding, release their property to them. So it's basically saying as soon as they basically have an idea what this stuff is you know, have them start engaging in it.

That doesn't require in an early Islamic or, or Saudi Arabian context that they be significantly older.

Simone Collins: I, I, well, and I would say like, what, what this makes me think of too is similar language that we hear around various Protestant traditions of the United States, decisions around when people can be baptized.

Like when you're old enough to understand. Like your commitment to your faith. And there are many arguments that then deconvert later have being like, oh, you weren't like, is that 8-year-old? You weren't old enough to consent to be baptized and to commit this much to the church. But like this is something that happens not just with regard to marriage, but like I think there are many religions who are like trying to make decision decisions around when kids are old enough to.

Take responsibility for their commitments in life. Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: I, I'd like to give a great example of this. You know, when, when, when they are arguing, look, we're we're like biologically and culturally different from you, and people could be like, oh my God. Like people of different groups can't be biologically different.

And, and, and that's why one culture can apply to everyone. The Urban One culture can apply to everyone. And a great example of where this is really hurting people in the United States is black families. So, you are not told this because this isn't offensive thing to mention. But black people are biologically different from white people in a number of ways.

And one that is really important to age of first birth that you may want in the spacing of your birth is black people have, specifically, black women have a way higher infertility rate than white women. And a slightly smaller fertility window than white women. And so a lot of black women don't.

They, they put off having kids into like their, their mid thirties because they see their white friends getting away with this. And they're just completely boned at that point. I. And doctors are like, oh, nobody told you, you know, because how could you, like, I'm know, called a racist for saying this, but it's like a, a studied phenomenon, but you're like, well then how, how does that work with black people?

How do they have the same number of kids, you know, in an evolutionary context? And the answer is they have a shorter fertility window.

Simone Collins: You mean they have a shorter gestation window?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they a shorter gestational window by about a week. And, and so they can, they can space their kids closer together.

And so this is why it makes sense to have different cultural norms for one group. Like if you actually care about that group, have different cultural norms. And this creates an interesting phenomenon that I was reading on which is so offensive to talk about. But it, but it is like a measurable phenomenon.

Which is you get developmental problems in interracial white black marriages where the mother is black and the father is white, but you don't get these when the father is black and the mother is white. Is there

Simone Collins: shorter gestational windows? Does that mean like the baby's born earlier, but then more likely to have complications?

Malcolm Collins: The baby is born earlier, but because of the white dad, part of the baby's genes expect this extra week, a longer

Simone Collins: gestation basic. Oh, that's interesting. It's

Malcolm Collins: basically like they're born premature. Oh. But then the, the longer gestational window where you have the white mom and the black dad you don't run into these problems.

I, I don't know if you get advantages. You probably do get some, but yeah. Wow. That's wild. But that's. Well, this is why, like, there's all sorts of harms caused to like everyone around by this fantasy of the urban monoculture that there were no differences in human populations. And, and like these are people actual, like I, I literally, like, I've talked with black women and they were like.

Furious that nobody told them about this. They're like, wait, black women have literally twice the rate of pregnancy complications. Like, yes, literally twice the rate. Nobody told you this. You know, like this, this is a thing that harms the black population that this has hidden for them like actively.

Simone Collins: Wow. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting there is this double standard because there are arguments and I've heard arguments made by many progressive outlets, and it's, you know, really messed up that. So much of medical science, modern medical science is based on research and, and foundational theories that were based on researching young men.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then they freak out when we try to research different populations, like Yeah. Yeah. The biobanks have like been intentionally purging DNA data from ethnic minority populations and native populations at the request of Wilkis. You are the reason

Simone Collins: you, and then they complained about the fact that like, you know, healthcare is not sufficiently.

Customized to different groups. It is, it's very frustrating. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, they used to do experimentation on these groups in very unethical ways. Well, okay Leo, let's

Simone Collins: not go back.

Malcolm Collins: Let's

Simone Collins: not do that. Let's

Malcolm Collins: not go back to that. Let's not go back to Tuskegee experiments. Let's just go

Simone Collins: back to very, very open, you know, why wide open samples where we get as much variet as possible, but keep track of the varieties that we understand how there are differences that need to be accommodated.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I love you to death. Did your mind change about anything from this?

Simone Collins: I really struggle with the drive toward cultural imperialism with the understanding of like allowing cultural imperialism like, you know, like just actively stealing young ladies, for example, that we think are abused, right?

Like, I just want to rescue them, right? But then I don't want other cultures to steal our children from us, and we know for a fact.

Malcolm Collins: They would, that there are

Simone Collins: lots of people on the internet, it's online

Malcolm Collins: all the time. Like, I wish I could actively, like,

Simone Collins: I want to get these, like the Collins as kids taken away from them.

So like I know what it's like to be the, on the other end of it and to vehemently believe that we're doing what's best for our children. And then at the same time, here I am sitting on the other side of the equation being like, I, I wanna take these kids away. They're, you know, being abused. So like I really struggle with this.

Right? And I think that the only way to, to reconcile and the only way I am reconciling with it now. Which may not be ideal is just like, well, we just have to provide something. A culture that's so compelling that you'd be crazy not to convert into it. It's high fertility and that leads to long-term flourishing and it grows well.

I

Malcolm Collins: mean, these cultures are not going to technologically advance and, and therefore, unless they make changes, like they, they could make changes and then but, but if we look at current trends mm-hmm. It does not look as if, you know, they are outputting the latest AI systems, for example. Yeah. Yeah.

And so, you know, as technology drives a wider and wider wedge between the capabilities of cultures that are able to produce high tech devices in cultures that are not. Mm-hmm. You know, they're, these groups, unless some woke, puts some on a spaceship, are, are not going to, you know, take humanities manifest destiny among the stars.

Right. Like, we're, we're not gonna have a DEI program for who gets on the spaceship. You know, we are, we are choosing. The best and the brightest of cultures that work the best and the brightest with other cultures. Mm-hmm. Because. This urban monocultural mind virus of, of, oh, everyone is exactly the same and, and, and, and can easily cohabitate.

Like that's just not true. Like, some cultures like if you put them next to another culture, they're just gonna kill them, right? Yeah. Like that, that, that's a thing. There. There are cultures that I could put in this region and these people, it'd be. A terribly stupid thing to do. It would be like leaving a kitten around a herd of lions, right?

Like, I am responsible for that. I'm the one who put the kitten there. It, it reminds me of the girl I. You wanted to do this big bike thing to show you know, oh, oh for, for peace and that, you know, there's no difference between different countries and different people and everything like that.

So she goes on this bike tour through Europe. She goes into a, a Muslim majority country and within 10 miles of the border, they found her body gRED to death. Trying to bike through one of these countries as a white woman. And it was just incredibly stupid. 'cause she believed this lie that these cultures aren't different and they, they are, right?

Like their norms are different. The way they relate to morality is different. , And , I'm not a relativist, but I, do believe that sort of within the conservative movement, we all have to fight for cultural sovereignty being the highest value because we, none of us have a dominant culture right now in the urban monoculture will use that to, to peel our kids from us and to restrict the ways in which we parent.

And so we just have to hope. That over the long run that we can be successful, that we can have lots of kids and that we can stay engaged with technology.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's dark.

Malcolm Collins: Dark, yeah. Love you toes, Simone. Have a great day.

Simone Collins: Love you

too. .

Malcolm Collins: I got the FedEx package handled at least. So that's done.

Simone Collins: Thank you.

Malcolm Collins: And we're going to try sushi correctly this time. I will come down and help you. The last time she made sushi rolls that were like larger than a silver dollar, like this big, she's like, this is what it showed in the thing. I was like, no.

And it was California. I've never made

Simone Collins: sushi before. I don't look at sushi because.

Malcolm Collins: Didn't know. I feel qu, I look at it being brown meant that it had gone bad.

Simone Collins: I never use avocados in anything.

Malcolm Collins: I know. I appreciate that you're trying, you are trying something new and that is amazing, Simone. I mean, you're doing it for me sometimes just ain't good

Simone Collins: enough.

Yeah. Sometimes.

Malcolm Collins: But now ladies and gentlemen, you're gonna learn how to do this better with the, the avocados and the well, and we're

Simone Collins: gonna use the tiny little molds that, that we also very, yes, cleverly got ahead of time. It

Malcolm Collins: very small sushi rolls. There's

Simone Collins: literally no way it can you, you have an unnaturally large mouth, Malcolm.

It shouldn't be a problem.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. You take the the it's actually us having large mouths is one of the things I noticed when we're around other groups, I'm like, is an ethnic thing about like our people, is that we have just like giant mouths. And so I've been around other people and I'm like, God, your mouth is so tiny.

Which is

Simone Collins: not something I've ever seen before. And now I, I need to look, look for it in people. The, at

Malcolm Collins: least look at your, look at your face on the screen right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you not see how enormous that is?

Simone Collins: Well, I average human, average human face. Is that what you're Googling out? You need to, I dunno, what else do I, you know, look at here?

I, okay.

Hmm.

Okay. I mean, we're slightly above average. We're not like Aerosmith. We're not, we're not like. Yeah, there's some other really impressive people,

Malcolm Collins: old

Simone Collins: baby's head in their mouth. You know, that's, that's really how you know. If you have a,

who was it who ate all the, the babies. It wasn't Zeus was one of the babies who was not eaten.

Kronos.

Kronos,

yeah.

Kronos mouth. Yeah. So, you know, it's big. I'm sorry. I'm bad with names. It doesn't matter who it is, Malcolm. All right. It's just difficult.

Speaker 2: Eggs. All my eggs. All my eggs, eggs.

Eggs. Yeah. Are you gonna open em up, Tyson? Yeah. I'll open all my eggs and, whoa. What was that person? Candy, you're giving it together. Do you wanna eat the candy? I eat candy. Okay. Wants candy too?

Those are be, they're jelly bets, jelly bands. Mom I jelly or jelly bands. I think I like jelly bands more toasty. So we're just gonna go with that. Jelly bands. Jelly bands. I opened it. Yeah, you did What was inside? I looked, look jelly.

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