Should you bank on being clever, or is persistence the ultimate key to success in life? We discuss why persistence enabled early humans to hunt successfully and how valuing persistence over intelligence has shaped our lives and values. We talk about using incentives and shaming to instill the importance of persistence in kids, how persistence helps you roll the dice more times, stories of persisting even when others laugh, and more.

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] the thing that helps persistence and endurance beat out cleverness is that you have, you know, a billion rolls of the dice. So even if the dice is loaded against you, eventually you're going to roll something great.

Malcolm Collins: People who are persistent get mini dice rolls. In D& D terms, or Baldur's Gate terms, it's the difference between having high stats and rolling with advantage.

Rolling with advantage means you roll twice and then you take the highest roll. Whereas high stats just add a number to your role after the role and you would always rather role was advantage than have high stats. This is, this is just true for life, right? Like you can actually just have advantage on everything so long as you are willing to accept failure and try again and again be rejected again and again.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Malcolm, one thing I really appreciate about you is that you loved that my motto when we first met was repeated blunt force. Like you got it instantly and no one else. Yes. [00:01:00]

Malcolm Collins: I was like, oh, this is someone I want to marry, but I want to ask you a question because I want to know if you actually know this other than our intelligence as a species, which is just.

Off the charts. Do you know what other thing is almost holistically unique in humans?

Simone Collins: Endurance, right? Like long, long endurance hunting and whatnot that, that we've even really early humans did, which is why so many mega fauna have gone

Malcolm Collins: extinct. Yes. So, there are some African tribes that still do this and I'll see if I can find a video of it or something.

Cause it's insane to watch. So what they will do to hunt a deer or gazelle like in Africa, right? Is they'll just chase them.

And they just keep chasing them. They can run faster than people. Yes, to start. But, they just keep chasing them until the deer just falls over exhausted. They walk up to it and they break its neck.

 These are the San people of the Kalahari Desert, the last tribe on earth to [00:02:00] use what some believe is the most ancient hunting technique of all, the persistence hunt. They run down.

The animals have taken fright.

They will concentrate on the bull. He will be carrying a heavy set of horns, and therefore will tire more quickly.

After hours of tracking, they've entered an almost trance like state of concentration.

At times, it's impossible to see any sign of the kudu's tracks, and the hunters must imagine the path it will have taken., they're now close enough for the next stage in the hunt. The chase.

Only one man will undertake it. Kuroe, the runner.

It's now a test of endurance. Who will collapse first, the man or the animal?

This was how men hunted before they had weapons. When a hunt had nothing more than his own physical endurance with which to gain his prize, running on two feet is more efficient over long [00:03:00] distances than running on four. A

man sweats from glands all over his. Body and so calls himself a kudu sweats much less and has to find shade if it's to cool down,

and a man has hands with which to carry water. So during the chase he can replenish the liquid, he loses as sweat

then the kudu collapses from sheer exhaustion.

Malcolm Collins: It's

Simone Collins: like those those horror films. Where the person who's being chased is just screaming and running and, and like, you know, acting all manic. And then like, the killer's just like slowly walking behind them. Like very, just

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, like, like, well, I mean, it's interesting. I, I sometimes imagine like when humans go into space because all space faring entities will be marked for their intelligence, right?

Like they'll all have been the most intelligent species on their planet. So like, what makes humans unique? Like, what's the other really weird thing about humans? Because all species will likely have something that's like. [00:04:00] I can almost guarantee that interstellarly, if there are multiple intelligent species, one of the things that humans would be known for is...

Stupid amounts of persistence. Like, other species will be like, Oh yeah, they'll just keep chasing you. Like, you piss them off, and they'll just follow you forever. Until they have killed you and everyone you know. But, no, I mean, I, I... I don't think that that's a bad thing to have as a species, but I also think it's a very interesting thing to, to have that marks what makes us different.

Because I think so many people, when they define what makes them human, and what they're proud of for being human, They talk about the intelligence and the wit and the cunning of our species.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's what people celebrate. Like, you know, James Bond isn't necessarily, I mean, he does show some, some signs of persistence, but that's not what's emphasized.

What's emphasized is his cleverness and his fighting and his suaveness [00:05:00] and blah, blah, blah. But that's,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But, but the other thing that makes us human. Is there a persistence and I actually think within our own family culture when I think about the values that I want to elevate for my kids, when I think about why I married a woman who on her dating profile, her quote was repeated blunt force, it was because I think venerating persistence is more important than venerating.

intelligence.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If there were a polygenic risk score for persistence and we had access to it, we would probably wait it in our calculations above intelligence.

Don't you agree?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, so there is a polygenic risk score for an internal locus of control, and I view that as highly correlated with resistance believing that you, so, internal versus external locus of control, for people who aren't familiar, a person with an external locus of control, if they're trying to explain the [00:06:00] events in their life, they will explain it through external means, whereas a person with internal locus of control will try to explain the events of their life through internal means, so for example, if a person with an external locus of control gets fired, it's, Because X had it out for me.

Because the company was racist. Because, you know, whatever. A person with an internal locus of control will say, I didn't do this right. I didn't do this right. Right? And every outcome always has an internal and external locus of control explanation. There's always answers from both perspectives. And That, that is, and sometimes one is truer than the other, but what's interesting is that people who persistently have an internal locus of control will come up with internal locus of control answers, and this helps psychological health, having an internal locus of control whereas having an external locus of control hurts psychological health, and it's something that the urban monoculture in any soft cultural tradition will always elevate, is external locuses of control, because they're easier in the moment, they just cause more pain in the long run.

So it is something you can select for. It is something you can [00:07:00] culturally train. And I remember growing up, my mom always told me, she goes, and this is why our school, the Collins Institute, we, we, we, we are four gifted kids, but we say, we are looking for giftedness in terms of eye will, not IQ. And this is something my mom always told me.

She'd actually shame me whenever I tried to elevate myself through IQ, because I did well on IQ tests, you know, I was always in the gifted classes and everything like that. And she was like, do you know how many pathetic losers there are in PhD programs? Like she really looked down on, on, on doctors and lawyers and people of those Which she would call lower middling professions because she said there was a cap on how much you could really earn or how much of a difference you could really make in a world in those professions, but more than that you know, the number of people who go to Harvard who end up being total losers, the number of people who go to Stanford who end up being total losers.

And she always taught me that that was expected of me. I mean, I remember she said, Yeah, of course you're going to go to, you know, an elite [00:08:00] institution. But you shouldn't be proud of it. That's the minimum that's expected of you. You should be proud of what you achieve in life. And you, there is nothing...

More denigratable, nothing that you can smear more or look down on more than a person who was blessed with a high IQ, because this is largely something you don't choose. And who went to one of these institutions, so they had advantages in life, and they didn't end up making a positive impact on the world.

Or they didn't end up making much of a positive impact on the world. I mean, what a sign of a lack of a moral core. Right. Or persistence, I guess, is in my family. When I saw Simone, it was like her saying, I am moral in the truest possible sense. Repeated one fourth. Because I, I guess I, in my family and, and with my kids, I was taught to associate persistence, especially persistence in a way that [00:09:00] denigrated or dismissed intelligence as a sign of moral fortitude.

Well,

Simone Collins: I mean, that's the thing is to when you look at and I'm not saying that high performance and traditional schooling is at all a sign of intelligence because it isn't necessarily at all. But when you look at the outcomes of kids who do the best in school they often. do not necessarily show the best outcomes in life.

Plus, you know, when you look at the outcomes of those who have the highest IQ, you also don't see, you know, these necessarily being the people who are going to send us to Mars, who are going to, you know, build amazing, crazy, cool things. I mean, there, there is a certain minimum amount of intelligence that you're going to need to do stuff.

I mean, I think one reason why maybe Forrest Gump is such. a beloved movie is because it kind of is a story about persistence, winning out with very, very, very little intelligence. But I, I do think that that's a little bit of a false God. Like you do need realistically a

Malcolm Collins: certain [00:10:00] amount. I mean, I think even with me, my strengths that I've always seen it as my strengths, he doesn't have a great perhaps song that I like that talks about this recently.

Wasn't born with tons of gifts, had to work hard as a kid, know that everything I did was to catch the other kids. Slowly built that self esteem, turned myself to a machine, I'd complete so I'd be seen. I would lose and I'd succeed, but you'd never see me quit, I'd always get after it.

Knew I had a different gift, I'd outwork any other kid.

Malcolm Collins: I should get up, put a little clip of it. Cause I like it, but yeah. The. My strength intellectually was never intelligence. I have always really struggled. So when I went to Stanford Business School, for example, in my first year at the school, and Simone remembers this, I came inches from being expelled due to low grades.

When I graduated in the second year in my final half of that year, I was easily in the top 5 percent of my class. And... This is something that has [00:11:00] persistently happened in high school, like high school, this is like a generic high school. I was around the half mark in terms of grades for the first couple years.

Now I graduated near the top of my class, but I, I, I always start really low. in anything I do, and I suspect that this is similar for podcasting or like trying to make a name of myself, like the public sphere, right? Like I am going to start incompetent for a much longer period than most people are incompetent, but I will outwork the other people and, and that is my gift, right?

And through outworking them, I will ultimately win. And I think some people, they may look at our podcast and they'll be like, I'm a little afraid, like I like this, but I see that they're not getting the views I would expect. So they're probably going to give up. Don't worry.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, unless you, you know, find

Malcolm Collins: stuff that's more useful for my time.

You're

Simone Collins: right. But I think the important thing too, is that there is an instrumental reason why this matters. So if you're really, really clever you [00:12:00] also have to be lucky. You know, you, you can't just be purely clever. You have to be clever at the right time, at the right place, with the right people and the right resources.

And

the thing that helps persistence and endurance beat out cleverness is that you have, you know, a billion rolls of the dice. So even if the dice is loaded against you, eventually you're going to roll something great. Where it, whereas if you were just very clever, you may have a load of dice, but you're only rolling a couple of times.

You know, without persistence, you may not actually get the kind of winnings that you want.

Malcolm Collins: I actually really like that framing. People who are intelligent have loaded dice. People who are persistent get mini dice rolls. In D& D terms, or Baldur's Gate terms, it's the difference between having high stats and rolling with advantage.

Rolling with advantage means you roll twice and then you take the highest roll. Whereas high stats just add a number to your role after the role and you would always rather role was advantage than have high stats. [00:13:00] This is, this is just true for life, right? Like you can actually just have advantage on everything so long as you are willing to accept failure and try again and again be rejected again and again.

This is a cool thing about our society now, right? We used to live in a world where I, I think for most humans today, one of the biggest punishments they'll face is social rejection, right? Now, hold on, when I am saying try again and again, I do not mean bet everything financially again and again.

Right? Financially, I actually have always been, and I believe in being quite conservative. I mean, my brother doesn't. He and he's been more successful than us. He actually, at one point, was going to get a burning ships as a tattoo. That he always talked about for his sort of motto. Oh, that would have been awesome.

What? That would have been awesome. I know, right? That's a, that's a cool tattoo but when it comes to the primary area that people are punished in our society today, the primary place that we're punished is social, right? And social punishment feels [00:14:00] incredibly painful, right? When people criticize me online or something like that, right? Like we have this instinctual fear. Because of evolution, that if we are not accepted, that we are going to be expelled from our community.

And historically, if you couldn't find a way to make the people around you, the people who could signal to you their displeasure, happy, you would f*****g die. Like, the evolutionary pressure to be accepted by your community is incredibly high. And this is how the urban monoculture is able to, through peer pressure, use it to manipulate people so successfully.

It doesn't matter anymore. In a world of network states, my people... Are defined, not by the people who are around me, but the people who accept me for who I am, for what I'm trying to do, so long as I act with integrity, and I always fight for what I logically have deduced to be true, and who continue to accept me when I realize that logical deductions I've made in the past are wrong [00:15:00] or incorrect, and I update my beliefs, my actual people, like the people who have a value set similar to me, They will appreciate that I have been able to update my beliefs based on new information.

The people who, on one side of the spectrum or the other, have always really been my enemies, will hate me. So, when somebody says something mean to me within an online environment, that doesn't challenge something that I value about myself. So, as I'll say, like, when people are like, Malcolm, you're talking over Simone.

You know, you're not respecting her enough. I genuinely get offended by that. And I genuinely get ashamed by that, because that's not who I want to be. But when people are like, oh, you're an idiot, I'm like, f*****g no, I'm not an idiot. Like, I almost certainly am financially better than you and live a happier life than you, so I'm pretty f*****g sure I'm not an idiot.

By, by most metrics of success, I have done pretty well. oR they'll say, Malcolm, you're a... I don't know, whatever. Like, you're a exophobe. And I'm like, I know I'm not an exophobe. [00:16:00] What are you talking about? Like, this is What is an exophobe? Exophobe is, means you're a phobe of whatever. So they'll say you hate X group to try to get you to

Simone Collins: change your behavior.

Oh, okay, okay, okay. They're saying you're phobic. Okay,

Malcolm Collins: sorry. You don't personally identify as hating X group. But if somebody's like, for example, you're homophobic. Right? I'm like, I f*****g know I'm not homophobic. I lived a vast majority of my life fighting for gay rights, fighting for gay people when no one else would.

Getting into fights in my school when I was the only person who would stand up for the gay kids in my school. Getting the s**t kicked out of me instead of the s**t getting kicked out of them because I was standing up for what I knew was right. I know. wHo I am. I know I'm not homophobic, but I am also not willing to say just f*****g whatever the LGBT movement says is the right thing to say these days.

You know, I, I am not going to be the strong woman trapped on the stage during that moment where she's like,

Now, this is the first year that a trans woman [00:17:00] is in the competition. How do you feel about that? Amazing. I feel honored to be a part of history.

I have a lot of incredible trans friends who are athletes, and so we're all inspired this woman's competing. Uh huh. And, uh, have you actually ever met Heather Swanson? Uh, no, I've never competed against her before, no. She's not exactly your average trans athlete. Well, what is an average trans athlete?

Honestly, I find that kind of bigoted, David. Okay. Heather Swanson is actually joining us now. Miss Swanson, how does it feel to be competing today? I can't tell you how free I feel now that I've started identifying as a woman. Now that I can compete as female, I'm ready to smash the other girls.

Well, with that, let's get right to the action.

Malcolm Collins: I try to look into the future of how things are going to play out. Like the, the trans people in sports thing, the LGBT community should have f*****g known how much that would backfire. And that it's not a position they can continue to hold.

And mostly they've [00:18:00] backed down from it now. But it's not a position I ever stand. Because it was f*****g obviously stupid. And it was f*****g obviously not what, when I was fighting for gay people to not be oppressed in high school, I was ever fighting for. I was never fighting for somebody with the body of a man to be able to compete against people with the body of a woman.

That was f Obviously not. That is what, when conservatives of the time, you know, which a different generation of conservatives would say, they'll eventually try this, I would say, I don't think they will, because only an idiot would do that,

 .

Sometimes we do things we're not so proud of. Some for money. Others to gain the athletic edge on the competition. Sometimes those secrets come back to haunt us. Do you know what I mean?

People who were not around during that period of LGBT rights may not. Remember, or, or really realize just how common this argument was, where people would be like, what you're fighting for [00:19:00] trans people. You think that they should be allowed to compete in women's sports and we'd be like, no, of course that's a transphobic thing to even suggest that somebody would try that because it is just so comical. And insane.

And it was the common argument used against the trans movement in the early days. And the approved older response was, it was transphobic to even suggest. That trans people may one day try to gain access to that. We've said, no, they just want to live their lives. They just don't want to be oppressed.

The insane bottom of the slippery slope argument back then was that eventually trans people would demand to compete in women's sports and demand to And be allowed to .change in front of other women. And that was an offensive thing to even suggest back then.

Simone Collins: Anyway, back to persistence. How do you think we're going to instill this, the importance of [00:20:00] persistence in our children?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, beat them.

I'm joking. I'm joking. No, I, I think that my parents actually did this perfectly.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: How did they do it? Well, they shamed me for taking pride in IQ over persistence.

Simone Collins: Hmm. But they also, did they reward persistence?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, if I did well on a test that I hadn't studied for, that was the same as failing a test.

Okay. Achieving something because of natural ability was always seen as a really negative and pathetic thing.

Simone Collins: But what's an example of them rewarding

Malcolm Collins: something? Well, they were worded it was praise. They were worded it was, I, like, I don't

Simone Collins: know. It was just like, So basically when they saw you tried really hard at something, then they would praise you?

Malcolm Collins: Well, not if I tried hard and failed. They were never that kind of family. I should be clear. They weren't a, all that matters is that you tried family. They were like, all that [00:21:00] matters is that you tried and you crushed your opponents to dust. No, I mean, it's a, it's a I, I think the core thing about persistence in a world where the core reason people fail persistence is because they are, you know, shamed or something like that in, in their environment is to teach people to ignore the value judgments of those around them.

That's the core thing. So when people around you, you know, I think like. For example, a core persistent message for me that I have relayed on the show before in our books. When I was younger, there was one time when a teacher was like mad at me. And I got punished and my mom was like, well, do you think you did the wrong thing?

And I was like, no, I don't think I did the wrong thing. And she goes, well, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, you know. Elementary school teachers, society thinks they're losers. They're basically minimum wage employees who nobody respects. You could ignore everything she says. In [00:22:00] adult world, she's pathetic.

And I took that to heart and I got in trouble a lot as a kid. Because I always did what I thought was right. And I, I suppose that's still what I'm doing today in society. And I think that goes hand in hand with persistence. These are identical value sets. The ability... to ignore other people when they are telling you that what you are doing is immoral.

And I think this is one of these things where, and we've talked about this in our, like, Jordan Peterson parenting video and stuff like that, where he saw his goal as a parent to break the will of his child or the children who he was in charge of observing, right? And the children would do something, and he was just, he needed to outweigh them, or he needed to force them to do what he wanted them to do, without, you know, significant explanation as to why he wanted them to do this, without having to logically convince them.

And that's telling them to arbitrarily obey authority. And I actually like a lot of what he says. I just really disagree with. This aspect of what he says, because I think when you grow up, and I think a lot of people today are grown up, [00:23:00] taught arbitrary obedience to authority is morally valuable, right?

And so they then look, what does the norm of our society think? What does the, we recently had Thanksgiving with our family, and I remember at one point, I'm I mentioned something along the lines of, well, I mean, women are naturally submissive on average. Right? This is in reference to our Dears video, the, the, the Dears anime video that we did.

And, and she gave me this death stare, like, what are you talking about? This was my stepmother. Yeah. Because, you know, she knew that society would back her for that position, and this is a mainstream societal position so she, I don't think, could ever thought through, just like, logically, everyone who is being honest knows that, on average, women are prefer to be submissive in their relationships more than men do.

And being able to admit this when you know you'll be punished [00:24:00] for it is the same value set that allows you to keep trying at something when everybody's laughing at you for failing. One of the the biggest moments I had about this in my life was I was taking this GMAT prep, right?

So for people who don't know, GREs and GMATs are the tests you have to take to get into graduate schools, specifically business schools. And I was going to a random Kaplan class. So you got to understand, this is just like the normal, the people in this class were the normal people who are taking GMATs and GREs.

The normal people looking to go to business school, not the best of the best or anything like that. Just the people who are out there trying hard. And this isn't like, you know, SAT prep in, in high school or something like that, where only rich kids are doing it. Cause when you're going to a business school, you're usually two years out of school.

You know, these are people who can pay for this themselves. Within my class. I remember I came to the class and I was consistently, cause it was like a four day or something like that. Consistently within the first day, the worst performer in the class. And [00:25:00] I told everyone in the class, I go, Oh, well, I'm going to Stanford or Harvard.

And they just laughed. Like, the class actually started laughing. Now, for people who don't know, I did end up going to Stanford, but I ended up working really, really hard. And it got to the point where some of the people who had associated me, like, there was this one guy in the class who had associated me with low status, because everyone in the class had laughed at me.

You know, the first day when I said I was doing that and I was consistently doing poorly. And I even remember the instructor turned to a guy who was like making fun of me for saying something the last day. And you go, you know that he is consistently by a large margin, the best performer in this class today.

lIke you should not still be making fun of him. Like, and it was, it was a moment, well, actually the bigger moment for me was when I slept with a few women in the class at the end. Oh God, of course you did. Hey, hey, I always, that's, that's what I remember about it. Well,

Simone Collins: here's one thing that I'm realizing my parents did for me that I would actually love to do with our kids, which [00:26:00] is...

Specifically incentivize action that requires persistence to get what you want, not intelligence. So for example, one thing that my parents always did, which I thought was really cool, was if I wanted something, they'd never pay for it outright. They would say, we won't match what you can make for this.

So like, I wanted to have a loft bed at one point and it cost like 500 to buy the kind I wanted. And they're like, okay. If you save 250, I will match that. And so then that required like just working and churning and like making the money to get there. Then I think that those kinds of lessons and, and incentives are even better than praise or shaming because you have to, you, you have to actually like discover.

The value of persistence and then you win through persistence. So, I, I'd like to do a lot of that with our kids. So like, you know, keep trying and then. You'll get it or [00:27:00] in order to get it, you're going to need to keep trying and not just be super, super clever.

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's people who don't know this about my wife.

She is a Gollum of persistence. She is a, a, you, you are the human.

Simone Collins: I guess Gollum is

Malcolm Collins: really persistent. No, I'm not talking about Gollum from Lord of the Rings. I'm talking about the Jewish Gollum. The, Look, it doesn't matter. She's an avatar of persistence. I'm talking about a clay monster brought to life by magic that is consistently just dedicated to a specific goal.

That's what I meant by Gollum. Anyway. Oh,

Simone Collins: oh, the clay thing that comes to life. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah that's the right word, right? Yeah. Sorry, I just need to look this up. I

Simone Collins: just think, I think Smeagol, for example, is more persistent than just a dumb, clay thing that has been

Malcolm Collins: brought to life. But anyway, he is persistent.

But you are the human avatar of persistence. So, when she was young She [00:28:00] participated in running and you ran so much they were like you were destroying your joints. You need to Do something that's not gonna be hard on your joints. And so then she's like, oh f**k it. Okay, I guess I'll swim Right? And then you swam so much, she spent so much time in the water.

She developed early stage osteoporosis because she was weightless for so much of the time. And that is why even today she has osteoporosis. Today, she exercises as we established in a previous video. Five hours of physical exercise every day you do while you're working. Her superpower, like on the scheduling video we talk about this, I don't know if it will have gone live by the time this video goes live or not, she is able to just work.

Like if she is working from 5 a. m. to 5 p. m. in a day, just work without breaks except for lunch throughout the entire day. And people can be like, well, what do you mean by that? Like me, normal humans, like, we need to like, I don't know, we'll like get online, we'll search something, we'll give ourselves little rewards throughout the day.

She does not do that. [00:29:00] She is just able to persistently

Simone Collins: work. But don't, I mean, is that persistence or is that autism? Like, let's be

Malcolm Collins: practical. There's lots of autistic people who use autism as their shield to get around hard work. Yeah. You have used it to fortify and fuel you into a killdozer. Yeah. People who don't know about the Killdozer, that is my, when I, if I was to create a party, right?

You've got the Democratic party, which is the you got the Republican party, which is the elephant elephant. I want the Killdozer party, the story of the Killdozer. If you don't know the story of the Killdozer, you need to look up the story of the Killdozer because it is the most quintessential American story in like American history.

Sorry, sorry,

Simone Collins: sorry, Malcolm you're frozen right now. I'm just waiting for you to come back but then we need to go get the kids.

Malcolm Collins: So basically there was this guy who kept getting screwed by [00:30:00] bureaucracy and by bureaucracy and by bureaucracy, and he ended up getting screwed so many times and so unjustly that he's just like, f**k it, I'm going to build an armored.

Tractor, which he built secretly in his business that had been destroyed by like, for example, one of the things is they had blocked all of the roads going to his store or something like that. So no one could even get there anymore. Because the, the person who was on the council, like owned one of the properties that decided to take the road leading to his thing.

I don't remember the full thing. It was just completely insane. He was truly wronged. Yeah. Yeah. And he just built this armored tractor that he used to go around didn't kill. Anyone during this rampage just destroyed the property of everyone who wronged him. And it is the spirit of justice for me and I want him to live forever in American folklore alongside, you know, Paul Bunyan and Johnny Appleseed, because I think he is a true American hero.

Yeah. I love you, Simone. [00:31:00] We'll go pick up the kids now. They're across the street.

Simone Collins: I love you too, Malcolm. All right.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe