Not so long ago, talking about Taiwan independence could earn you a lengthy prison term. That changed in the late 1990s as Taiwan embraced democracy. Taiwan independence advocates in the United States have always enjoyed more freedom of speech, but pro-independence organizations that pulled stunts such as chaining themselves to the doors of the U.N. building or flying pro-Taiwan banners over Little League games did come under official scrutiny. One such group, the Formosan Association for Public Affairs (FAPA), was actually placed on a “terrorist” list. This week, Eryk chats with the President of the Pennsylvania Chapter of FAPA, Liam Keen, a man from the UK who holds ROC citizenship, and lives and works in both the US and Taiwan. Keen argues that actions by FAPA are producing meaningful changes in the recognition of Taiwan as a de facto sovereign state by the United States, noting that until FAPA fought and won, a Taiwan-born could person had to list their place of birth as “China” on U.S. government documents. Enjoy a fun, slightly argumentative discussion on what Taiwan should be striving for in the international arena, and the difference between symbolism and substance.