In this thought-provoking discussion, we analyze why men flaunting fancy cars, watches, and other displays of wealth can seem strangely similar to women posting sexualized images. We argue both represent kinds of signaling not aligned with long-term monogamy.

For men acquiring trophies wives, the woman herself becomes a sexual status symbol. Yet this disposability makes trophy relationships precarious for women. More broadly, more meaningful displays like family commitment and mentorship better indicate male status. We see obsessive wealth flexing as an addiction distracting from real impact, similar to female vanity.

Ultimately, both genders sometimes get distracted maximizing the wrong kinds of social status. Redirecting these motives toward posterity could better serve society.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] when I see older men do this, right, it reminds me a lot of of a older woman trying to show off her sexuality, like a Madonna showing off her sexuality.

Every time I see some old man with eight fancy cars in his garage, and he's married. And I'm like, why aren't you investing in your kids companies? Why aren't you helping them get off the ground? And if you don't have kids, why aren't you putting money into causes that you care about? The world is literally falling apart, and you are sexually signaling to a F*****g mirror.

It's weird and pathetic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, it is interesting that it isn't seen as obscene in society for a man to signal his wealth as it is for a woman to signal her sexual availability. Why I think it's uniquely strange is that we already live in a society that, that demoralizes men for pretty much everything else they do.

Why do you think this isn't being demoralized?

Malcolm Collins: [00:01:00] So there's easy glib answers I could give, right? Like they want men to waste their lives. They don't want money that could go to fixing things to go to fixing things because fixing things removes the people in power from power. I don't think this is why. No, I'm just being clear. I don't think this is I'll tell you why,

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: Hello gorgeous. Hello

Malcolm Collins: Simone. It is wonderful to be here with you today. I am excited for this topic. It came up when we were doing the Just Pearly thing recording, like in the moment I was thinking about this. bEcause in the, in the episode, the,

Simone Collins: the thesis for context, a couple of weeks back, we were on the just pearly things pregame show.

It is a panel based show where Hannah Pearl Davis you know, discusses various topics and a bunch of randos who show up discuss with her. And one thing that she started doing near the end of the pregame show was pull up images of women on Twitter and criticize them for [00:02:00] dressing in provocative ways.

So

Malcolm Collins: which, which, you know, it's funny that maybe if you look at our episode with Louise Perry, what we need as a society, more women I don't know if that episode will air before this one or not, but more women being criticized for when they are outside of their younger age phase, because, you know, women like men go through multiple phases where they are psychologically optimized for different things and when, which they should be optimized for different things.

And if you are a mother and a wife, You know, being a thirst trap, it's probably not you've got to ask, why are you still doing that? Like, why are you still looking for validation from men who are not your husband on online environments? Right? That is something that maybe people should be shamed for? So, anyway. However, we had a theory on this show that came up that I had never really thought through before,

Simone Collins: , you would support the idea of using social shaming to [00:03:00] encourage society to ease into various stages of life that actually work sustainably, like going from being a young woman who banks on her sexual attractiveness to being more of a matriarch who focuses more on motherhood and building a career than to more of a matriarch who focuses on, on mentorship and using shame to kind of enforce that.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I think this makes sense. And I think that, you know, it was in the red pill. We see this okay, if a woman is married and she is projecting to society, I am in a monogamous relationship. You know, why is she doing this stuff? Right? Like, why is she doing the sexual signaling? We would look at her really weird.

If she walked down the street was like little, you know, pins on her, her nipples and nothing else. And in some ridiculous outfit, you're like, who are you signaling to? And worse than walking down the street posted. picture on social media. But this gets really interesting. So what is the male equivalent to this?

Right? Well, in, in humans women signal [00:04:00] using their bodies often. That is how they attract mates. How do men often attract mates? Well, men attract mates showing success and material wealth. That being the case, the male equivalent, To this sort of vain sexual advertisement is a man who is in a, at least claimed, monogamous relationship with kids and stuff like that, wasting money on vanity signals of wealth.

Simone Collins: Yeah, flaunting his wealth. Essentially to like Cars. Yeah, if, if women bring their Youth and beauty and we'll say fertility to the table. Then what men bring is their resources. So a man flaunting his resources is doing the same thing as a woman flaunting her body and youth. Right.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, who are you signaling to?

You know, if you're a married man, right, especially a married man [00:05:00] with kids, and you get some ultra fancy car, you know, that money could have gone to your kid's education, that money could have gone to making the world a better place, like, why, specifically, were you doing that? And this gets really interesting to me, because when we were on the panel, there was this other guy.

I like him. He's a nice guy. Like I didn't want to like debate him or anything on the show, but his job is selling status to young men through fancy suits and, and, and stuff like that. Right. And he seems to really indulge in this status. And he was like, yeah, but well, first, the first thing is like, is well, fancy cars helped me get my wife to sleep with me.

Basically. He's I got a fancy car and that's why I have as many kids as I have. So, you know, you guys as pernatalists should be promoting fancy cars.

Simone Collins: Which is to me, I think that's just cope. You don't need that to get someone to sleep with you. I mean, I think the women who are most satisfied in the relationships feel supported. And loved and also see you know, they're, they're male partners, especially if they already have kids being great dads.

Like to me, [00:06:00] that is the sexiest stuff you ever do.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it just isn't true. So if you are in a long term married relationship and your wife only sees you attractive when you increase in terms of wasteful displays of wealth. That's

Simone Collins: worrying. That's a bad, I also, I can't imagine. I can't imagine doing that.

Like to be. A partner, and then be feel, feel more secure in your partner choice when your partner spends money on luxury goods and keep in mind, by the way, the typical male spending for sexual signaling, you know, cars, watches, suits, et cetera, this is not really stuff that benefits a female partner. It is stuff that benefits the male partner you know, taking a female partner for a ride to the store in your fancy car.

I'm sorry. That is not improving your quality of life. Maybe buying a nicer house. Maybe getting nice furniture or luxury trips, you know, stuff that the family enjoys together, but that's not what is happening in these displays. You know, the classic displays are the expensive suit, [00:07:00] the Rolex the, the car.

Is there anything else? What are the classic things? Sometimes the, sometimes the ripped body. I think the ripped body is the new is, is kind of the the tech billionaires

Malcolm Collins: flex Oh, yeah. Body, yeah. As well. Yeah. Yeah. Who are you spending all this time improving your body for? Right? Yeah. If you are, you've got a wife, you've got kids, you know, if you're spending x many hours a day at the gym, that's, it.

Simone Collins: Looks, I mean, obviously being healthy is important. Right? And no one wants

Malcolm Collins: like a Yeah, we're not. This is very different. There is a health body, and then there is a body that you are obviously sacrificing health to achieve. And these are two different things. And, and it is as, as I think obscene as a woman who is married walking around in a very skimpy outfit.

And what's really interesting is you'll hear arguments from men who indulge in this. That really mirror the arguments you're hearing from women who indulge similarly.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Oh, like my husband likes it slash my wife likes it. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Right. Well, I would say the first one [00:08:00] that I think you hear, it's I just like doing it for me.

Why don't I get to do things for me? It's this is if you talk to a woman, you call a woman out on this and you see this, you know, because there were other women in that room who had clearly done this before where you're like, why are you posting thirst trap photos? On public profiles when you're a married woman and they're like, well, I like doing it for me.

What do you like about it? You, you like the way people respond to it. What kind of people, right? There is an intended audience for this. Now, where guys may have some level of cover is they can say, well, yes, but the intended audience is, Other guys.

Simone Collins: Okay, but the, you know, the same, now the same argument could be used for other women.

I mean, many people have argued that women only wear makeup, really, for other women. Which is not...

Malcolm Collins: Entirely. I mean, they do to an extent, you know, within these inter women social status hierarchies, but here's the interesting [00:09:00] thing. If you're doing it for other women or other guys, so if I am a woman and I am posting thirst trap photos to signal to other women my relative hierarchy within those female social circles, I am judging my hierarchy by my desirability to men.

There are.

Simone Collins: Yeah, you're still competing along. What you would consider like a sorted or, or

Malcolm Collins: misaligned. Exactly. There are ways that women can signal hierarchy to other women that are not about how attractive they are to men. I mean, look at you, right? Whether it is your career or your kids or your husband, like people, when they go to your Instagram and you can go to her Instagram, Simone H.

Collins. I love it. Great Instagram. My Malcolm

Simone Collins: Collins fan account.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, but it is. It is signaling your status to other women. If people look at this, it's very clear. You are signaling your status to other women on this account through your husband's dedication to the family.

Simone Collins: Yeah, look at what I have.

I have this amazing husband and [00:10:00] he's

Malcolm Collins: amazing. Why are you posting this? And by the way, I didn't even know, like I found this account, like long after we'd been married. And it's a pervy Malcolm account. Not, not even pervy. It's just my husband is sweet to me all the time. Here are all the things he does.

But that is how you are social signaling to your friends. Right. In

Simone Collins: other words, you're saying, you know, in response to the female argument of, of, I just want to, I enjoy this, or I want to show my status. Well, you can show your status in ways that aren't thirst trappy and that do still appeal to both men and women, just not in a way that's like a signaling sexual

Malcolm Collins: availability.

Yeah. Yeah. But I think the same thing's happening with, uh, with yeah, yeah. Men could

Simone Collins: like, yeah. And actually, you know, the guys that I follow on Instagram.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, there are multiple ways that a man can compete within his social hierarchy of other men. He can compete by showing how dedicated his wife is to the kids, showing their lifestyle together, showing the things they do together, [00:11:00] or he can compete by showing the wealth s**t. He's buying, right? And if you are showing the Welsh that you're buying, you are clearly signaling, you know, what status game you're playing and it is not the long term partner status game.

And I think historically society understood this. It is obscene and vulgar. For a man to indolently show signs of wealth like this.

Simone Collins: Now, okay, but riddle me this because I, there, there's this one thing that gets me a little confused. And, and this, we saw a lot of this when we lived in Miami. There were plenty of Miami couples where the man did the suit and the Rolex and the car.

And his girlfriend did the looks like an Instagram model thing with extremely revealing clothing, et cetera, et cetera. So here you have a couple where both are doing that and they're very much and I [00:12:00] know couples too, like I I have, I have followed them because some of them had been clients of our business who together post a lot of.

Images of themselves both in those things. You know, the woman is extremely scantily clad. The man is in the fancy car. What's going on there? Are you trying to say that they're both trying to signal sexual availability? No, I actually think this

Malcolm Collins: is a very unique phenomenon. I'll call it the trophy wife dynamic.

Okay. So in the trophy wife dynamic, an individual has a wife specifically because of how that wife positively augments their status. In, in, in, in a sexual context, right? Like they want the wife to be attractive and, and vapid and to show other men how quote unquote submissive and breedable they are, but like they don't actually breed them, right?

They are a trophy. They are not a utility wife. The thing about trophy wives. is that they are fundamentally disposable. And this is why a woman should never, [00:13:00] ever, ever marry a man as a trophy wife. It is a f*****g terrible job. And the reason is, is because as you age as a woman, your value on the sexual marketplace declines.

The core reason this guy wants you, the reason why he's letting you post all this thirst trap stuff with him, right? Is because he is showing off your sexual value to his male friends. Well, the problem here. Is that if that is the value that he sees in you, a younger woman is always going to be able to outcompete you in that value set.

If that is all you're bringing to the relationship, you're bringing no productivity gains, no children, no anything like that, well, okay, you hit 40, you hit 45, you are with this rich guy, of course he's just going to trade you in for a younger model. And then what do you have? You've got no skills and no career, nothing to fall back on at all.

All, you are completely both used and disposable and disposed of and I think a lot of women [00:14:00] don't realize what's happening in this. I think in these instances, you know, it's clear what the guy is doing. If the guy is using you, your body, to sexually signal to his friends, you are disposable to him.

That's what I think is going on. Yikes. Well, I mean, do you disagree,

Simone Collins: or? Yeah, well, so, I mean, basically, it's this It almost sounds like a weird predator prey situation, where the prey is going around being like, Look at me, I'm so great! And they have no idea that they're on the chopping block.

Like already by design,

Malcolm Collins: just kind of, well, they've turned themselves into a product. Yeah. And they, I mean, the thing is, is that if you're a woman, this is always the option if you're born attractive. Right. Yeah. But it's a stupid f*****g option. And this is one of the things, you know, so a lot of you know, red pill guys are like, women have it so easy, blah, blah, blah.

But not. Really? Not really. They have dumber temptations [00:15:00] that are easier to fall into that f**k up their lives more than yours.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like men, men are more likely in other words, to be forced to build a strong job and career independence, at least financial independence. And, and, you know, at least to be able to fend for themselves no matter what happens, whereas women are in.

Courage incentivized by societal norms to, you know, focus on, on a very fleeting asset, which is their youth and beauty to like to enter a relationship in which they won't necessarily stay. And then what happens after that falls apart?

Malcolm Collins: I mean, a smart male, definitely. And a smart female, like if I was to compare the two smart male, smart female, equal attractiveness.

The, the man, I'm sorry. The woman definitely has it better.

Simone Collins: Of

Malcolm Collins: the smart people, smart people, right? Because they can utilize these assets. They can see what's out there. They can see the temptations. But when I'm talking about a dumb male and a dumb female of above average interactiveness, [00:16:00] I actually think that the dumb male has it much better than the dump.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: fair. Well, yeah, because essentially the dumb male. We'll, we'll have a harder time doing dumb s**t,

right?

Malcolm Collins: They'll have a harder time truly f*****g up their life in the way that a woman will be incentivized to. Yeah, well,

Simone Collins: they're less likely to be successful at doing dumb things, whereas women are more likely to be successful at doing dumb things that will hurt them over the long run, right?

Like the men are, men are more likely to be forced. So that's,

Malcolm Collins: well, this is something that you had said to me recently. And I'd love you to go over it here. The, the MGTOW thing where you're like, look, if you're a guy like in, in, in you get fucked over, you can become a MGTOW. But if you're a girl what do you do?

Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. I'm really referring to uncoupled men and women. Yeah. But yeah, but I mean, yeah, this, this applies. So. While a lot of people are looking now at like men's rights movements, you know, people who are aware of, of how men are screwed over in divorces, how men are screwed over in dating, you know, how men are like really societal [00:17:00] forces are way more against men than women which would lead people to logically conclude that men are worse off.

But my argument is that men are not worse off when you actually look at rates of, of, of. Unhappiness and mental health problems. Who has a bigger mental health problem? It is young women, specifically progressive young women. They are suffering more. So even if they technically have it easier, they're the ones who are really hurting most in society and who appear to be failed most by society.

And part of that's I feel like young men aren't really allowed to. To decide that they've been traumatized by what's happening to them whereas societal narratives are such that, that young women are encouraged to believe that they're traumatized by things. And we saw this in, for example, Ayla's research where she found among the same group of young men and women, the young women somehow believed that they had, you know, more abusive childhoods and their families somehow made less money, even though this is again, the same sample.

So there's this like skewed [00:18:00] perception of reality among young women. So, yeah. I, I feel like it's just, even though society is more unfair toward men it hurts young women more and I think a lot of that comes down to contextualization.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, it is interesting, right? Like I look at the world today and I'm like, okay, if I was a young man and I was going out there and try, at least there were sources for me, places I could go, I think realistically that have online, like large communities that would set me on the right path.

That's

Simone Collins: the key thing, though. They aren't necessarily going to support you or give you a big hug or tell you that you're doing the right thing. They're going to set you on the right path. Keep in mind that these support networks that you would go to though, would often do things that society today would say are cruel or mean, because they're not necessarily saying, Oh, it's okay.

Oh, you can feel whatever you like. Oh, you know, people should come and help you. They might be saying stuff like, Oh yeah. You actually do look like a fat slob, like maybe you need to [00:19:00] start lifting. Maybe you need to get a job. So they'll say harsh things to you that are considered cruel or even bullying by modern society.

Whereas women, I think actually do have what someone would intuitively assume are more supportive societies online, you know, women who have all these different support groups and, you know, they'll be like, Oh, this is a horrible, you've been mistreated, but ultimately that's doing them way more harm. So, you know, by, by saying you had support online, I don't want people to feel misled.

You may have found tough love online. Women are finding a lot of support, but it's very toxic. Does that make

Malcolm Collins: sense? That's more important, right? If you look at the psychological health of young women it is obviously and measurably worse than the psychological health of young men. And the more they get sucked into this progressive cultural sphere, the worse their psychological health gets.

Yeah. It is really shocking when you look at just how fucked young women are in our current society. They are told to indulge in themselves, to burn their soul in a bonfire of their own [00:20:00] vanity. And as a result they feel hollow and, and worthless. And it is in the moment, always easier to strike out for whatever small a happiness that they think they want in reality, which ultimately hurts them more, right?

It turns to ash in their mouth, you know, King Midas, right? Like they think they have youth and beauty. And so they try to go for all of the The, the wonderful things they think they have around them, but it turns to ass and their vagi Sorry, it turns to ash in their vagine or mouth. It feels good momentarily, but then causes them suffering.

And then they lash out at these things, because what they don't understand is they think the things that they have been consuming... They think that it, that was the problem, that that's what made them unhappy, but no, it was the people who built this structure and [00:21:00] society for them, the feminists, who built a system that makes them systemically unhappy.

And so you have movements like the MGTOW that have broken from our society and say, okay, we're gonna do things our own way, we're gonna try something different. And through that. These individuals have come to positions that are psychologically more healthy, but they are also susceptible to the same vices that these young women are susceptible to.

You know, these young women are susceptible to believing that their status hierarchy gets determined by how attractive they are. And if you look within the MGTOW community, I think the biggest vice and the number one thing that needs to be shamed within the MGTOW community. Is individuals showing off fancy cars, showing off wasteful expenditures of wealth because through that they are still showing that they have not broken out of the system.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And that's really funny because now that I think about it, one of the top things that happens to many I guess, newly [00:22:00] converted MGTOW men is they post photos of the really fancy cars and watches they're able to get because they're not spending money on women.

Malcolm Collins: It's like those things were only a value to you because women thought they were a value.

So

Simone Collins: I guess I'll try to push back and steel me on this, even though I largely agree with you. I mean, men also like to signal power to other men. And I think there's a decent amount of competitiveness among men and a desire to show status and have a dominance hierarchy among men. How else are men supposed to show?

To their male friends, if that's all that they care about, that they're

Malcolm Collins: a big deal. Well, so I think that this is a really important question and it can be mirrored in a woman, right? Like a woman's well, even if I am isolating myself from men, even if I'm saying I'm only going to interact with women going forward, I'm only going to do women things.

I'm not going to get married. They might still post a bunch of thirst trap photos, right? Oh, actually,

Simone Collins: I don't know. When I think about like lesbian or political lesbian communities, I don't think of.

Malcolm Collins: I'm saying hypothetically. [00:23:00] Okay, so you saw a woman doing this. You're, you're in these women communities.

You'd be like really disgusted by this. You'd be like don't you see that you're still playing into the old system? What's the point in doing all this? A Rolex itself has no value to you. A fancy car itself has no value to you. Other than the value that you were told it had was in your social context as a kid and you can say, well, I think it's cool, but not really.

I mean, you think it's cool because, you know, that's the way you contextualize it, right? And this contextualization had a purpose. So you, as an adult, you say, how do I show my status among other men? Do something f*****g meaningful with your life. Because there are meaningful things you can do with your life, other than spend it on vanity items, which you constantly are flapping around other men, like a woman flapping around her breasts with pasties on, you know, it is, you know, I mean, it's accurate, and I think it's also really gross interestingly, and to [00:24:00] me, very similarly, when I see older men do this, right, it reminds me a lot of of a older woman trying to show off her sexuality, like a Madonna showing off her sexuality.

Every time I see some old man with eight fancy cars in his garage, and he's married. And I'm like, why aren't you investing in your kids companies? Why aren't you helping them get off the ground? And if you don't have kids, why aren't you putting money into causes that you care about? The world is literally falling apart, and you are sexually signaling to a F*****g mirror.

It's weird and pathetic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, it is interesting that it isn't seen as obscene in society for a man to signal his wealth as it is for a woman to signal her sexual availability. Why I think it's uniquely strange is that we already live in a society that, that demoralizes men for pretty much everything else they do.

Why do you think this isn't being demoralized?[00:25:00]

Malcolm Collins: So there's easy glib answers I could give, right? Like they want men to waste their lives. They don't want money that could go to fixing things to go to fixing things because fixing things removes the people in power from power. I don't think this is why. No, I'm just being clear. I don't think this is I'll tell you why, because I don't think it interferes because I think that a lot of beliefs are, are, are, are held via cultural evolution.

If a belief genuinely challenges an existing cultural group, like if I teach my kids something that prevents them from deconverting and converting into the urban monoculture, well then the urban monoculture is going to shame that. Right. If there's something that keeps my kids in my cultural group, well then the urban monoculture is going to shave them.

If there's something, you know, anything like that, right? The urban monoculture is going to shave them. But if, if, if, if, alternatively, um, I am a old failed man who is... [00:26:00] Wasting away his money on indulgences that I am signaling to a f*****g void. That really doesn't interfere with any of the Urban Monoculture's plans for the world.

You are neutering yourself in these displays. You are neutering... The financial impact you could have on anything from elections to nonprofits, to advocacy, to starting new companies. And you are doing it for no real benefit to yourself other than to your ego, which, you know, as, as, as we say, the soul burns on the bonfire of vanities, you know, you are destroying yourself with these actions and a lot of men.

Who have, you know, sunk cost fallacy. I'll say this, like the guy in the just pearly things interview and they'll be like, wasted my money on that or I spent my money on that very wisely. How dare you tell me that this was a an indulgence? How dare you tell me that indulgences are [00:27:00] always wicked? How dare you challenge my world framing that made me feel like a good and successful person?

Oh,

Simone Collins: And there's also a complication that you're not mentioning here as well, which is this man's career was built on selling a product that does exactly this type of social signaling. And he, he banks on, on selling that social signaling value to young men. So he really can't, he, he wouldn't be allowed to agree with you unless he wanted to undermine his

Malcolm Collins: ability.

Okay.

But I'd say if you're a young guy, when you're young, you know, you can signal to your male friends by who you're dating or something like that. Fine. Right? Like I think it's indulgent and wasteful, but do it if you want to, right? But as you get older, expect to change what you're using to signal to other people, right?

The, the amount that you are [00:28:00] glorifying your wife, the, the, the way that you treat her, the way that you treat your kids, those are the true signs of status. Once you are in a long term monogamous relationship. Yeah. And, and don't forget it. We're, we're normalizing that here now. Right? Don't f**k with that.

Right? You, you rise in status to me as a male. Like, when I'm looking through Facebook and I'm like, is this, does this person have a better life than me? I see a bunch of fancy cars and s**t. I'm like, wow, their life f*****g sucks. I see them with kids playing in the stream. I'm like, s**t, you know, I know I post those photos, but I don't, I don't do that enough with my kids.

I got to do that more. You know, I see them go into. Fall fest. I see them helping their family with chores. Those are the moments that I wish I spent more time on. So yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hmm. I'm trying to think of any other counter arguments that someone might have to this. I mean, if someone just says they really, [00:29:00] really like collecting cars and, you know, you know, a lot of smart people who I think have collected.

Really good sports cars who I don't think are driven by sexual signaling. Like what if you just autistically like cars? Do you think that there, there's a decent number of men who just like, well, that's

Malcolm Collins: an addiction. Okay. So just, you know, I, I do things that are driven partially by addiction as well.

Right. But I do not pretend that they are a status symbol. It is pathetic men who treat how much they can drink or how much they do drink as if it's a status symbol among other men. Yeah, you

Simone Collins: know what, actually the, the friend of yours that I'm thinking who, who we know who's bought the most luxury cars, like no one knew he had them, so that makes a lot of sense.

Malcolm Collins: It is something you should be ashamed of, your Magic the Gathering

Simone Collins: collection. I don't think he was ashamed of it because he would resell them and make money, so he was actually No, no,

Malcolm Collins: no, yeah, if you're reselling them, okay, I agree with that. If you are using them, but that's different.

Simone Collins: That's yeah, [00:30:00] I mean, no, I mean, it was, for him it was a combination of a hobby and an investment because he would ultimately make money, but then he got to drive around luxury cars and, but no one knew he was driving them.

So it was a very strange thing, but yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I guess, and I think the same could be said of women. Like a lot of women just, Oh, you know what? I think this is the case with thinking about all the women in very conservative Islamic nations. But they're like wearing, you know, a ton of, of covering, but then at home they're like dripping in Gucci.

Like they're just, they have a ton of couture under that isn't necessarily super modest. So like they go, they go home, all the outerwear comes off and they're wearing this stuff. Maybe that's, you know, It doesn't happen.

Malcolm Collins: It doesn't happen. I'm sorry. I've seen they, that doesn't happen. The women in, in Islamic countries who signal wealth through closing, they just do on the outside went through like diamond encrusted

stuff like that. Yeah. They don't do it at home. No, I know enough Islamic families where I have seen women at home and at home. I [00:31:00] have never seen a woman who looks wealthier when she's not in full outfit than she does when she's in full outfit.

Simone Collins: Happened in sex in the city, probably not my most accurate source of

Malcolm Collins: cultural.

Yeah, that is not accurate. No, no, no. There are a lot of women in these countries who will signal stuff with like diamond crested. They actually have to do with like phone coverings and stuff like that. But they, they, they never look more expensive under their outfits than they do outside of their outfits and from what I've seen or what I've heard. So that is the sex in the city

Simone Collins: life.

Yeah. Well, that's too bad.

Okay. I'm beginning to doubt myself here, so I might be wrong on this. It fans have experienced something different. Let me know just, I'm not doubting my experience, but you know, the number of. Muslim women who were really conservative, closing that I have seen in. Or heard about in less than extremely formal environments is obviously going to be small because I am a male. So there are likely listeners to this podcast who would have had more experience with this than [00:32:00] I have. A little anecdote here. I wanted to share with people that, to me really helped me recognize that some Muslim cultural groups are extremely similar to cultural groups in near the areas I grew up in, in Texas. , his, I was hanging out with one of my Emirati friends in, I think it was around Abu Dhabi at the time. , and he was getting dressed.

He always wore a really formal conservative, uh, you know, religious outfits. From my perspective. But apparently not from his mom's perspective. , because he didn't item. No, he hadn't tied something correctly or something like that. And we were about to leave the house and his mom was like, don't, you dare leave the house without your something, something, you look like a f*****g Egyptian when you do that. , and I just thought it was so funny. It's just, it's the type of off-color insult.

I would be so likely to here in Texas.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you, Simone. I love you too, Malcolm..

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