As a 102-year-old brand, White Castle has become a niche part of culture, from the “Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle” movie to people getting married at the restaurant. Jamie Richardson, VP of marketing and public relations, discusses maintaining the White Castle brand as a pop culture icon. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. DAMIAN (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.ILYSE (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. AndDAMIAN (00:04):Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.ILYSE (00:10):This week we sit down with Jamie Richardson, VP of Marketing and Public Relations at White Castle, the 100 and 2-year-old brand that's been part of pop culture and a mainstay in American fast food since it was opened by founder Billy Ingram as a family business in 1921. It now operates around 342 US locations.DAMIAN (00:32):From the 2004 film, Harold and Kumar go to White Castle to making headlines for hosting weddings. White Castle manages to maintain its status as a pop culture icon while innovating in new areas like grocery and delivery.JAMIE RICHARDSON (00:53):Well, you know, when you work at White Castle, you get calls from all over the world, and one fine day somebody called their 800 line, and I had the opportunity to speak to this person and they said they were from Hollywood, and that there's this film about two likable underdogs who spent an evening of misadventure looking for White Castle. So we said, sure, send us the script. And then I remember taking the script home and taking a look at it, and they forgot to mention it was rated R for raunchy. So that was a little surprising. Um, but, uh, we had some good debate internally. And then I had the opportunity to talk to our CEO and third generation leader, uh, bill Ingram. I had the perfect pitch down. I was really ready to, to sell this big idea. I remember walking into Bill's office and panicking, and the first thing I blurted out was, it has sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Other than that, it's really good for us. And he kind of paused and looked up and said, what in the world are you talking about? And when I told him a little bit more, he, he looked and said, well, as long as it doesn't make fun of our team members, I'm fine with it. So that's how the greatest film that never won an Academy award. Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, got green-lighted thanks to Bill Ingram. That'sILYSE (01:59):Great. It must have helped business. What would you say are other unique aspects of White Castle, whether it's like the menu, branding or history and how that contributes also to its ongoing presence in pop culture?JAMIE RICHARDSON (02:12):You know, I think for us it's about being relevant and being resonant and having a reverence from where we've been, but also at the same time connecting with consumers today where they are. So, um, certainly at the base of it all, it's about hot, tasty, affordable food. Just like our founder Billy Ingram imagined at the very beginning, he really believed every family should be able to have an affordable evening out. Um, and but beyond that, I think we've been able to be a part of people's, uh, memorable moments and, and that connects us emotionally beyond the physical properties of product and the utilitarian value of food. So keeps it fun and real.ILYSE (02:44):And do you guys have like a lot of traditions when it comes to that? It seems, um, it, it seems to play a big role at White Castle, actually. Your burgers have pretty much stayed consistent and then certain traditions have continued on, such as like people get married at White Castle, which is super fun. And then you have a Valentine's Day celebration now, I believe in its 32nd year. Why is it important to continue traditions that consumers know and love? YouJAMIE RICHARDSON (03:13):Know, I think for White Castle, uh, as a family owned business that's been around for 102 years, our neighbors and friends are the people we serve every day in each of the communities we're in. So for us, uh, you know, around Valentine's Day, white Castle becomes love castle and people make reservations three months in advance to get that special seeding. And I think it's us not taking ourselves too seriously and having some fun with it and recognizing we, we exist to feed the souls of Craver generations everywhere.DAMIAN (03:39):Now, Jamie, you mentioned, uh, the word relevant, which obviously is key to any brand, you know, staying relevant and especially in the sector that you are in a competitive restaurant and fast food category. I'm wondering how White Castle has adapted to changing consumer taste and trends, um, whilst it's preserving this 102 year old iconic status.JAMIE RICHARDSON (03:58):I, I think for us it's about not being locked into something that we've done just because that's the way we've done it before. It's about meeting people where they are. And the best way to do that is ask good questions, listen intently, and then have that be the foundation for your actions. So, um, we're big believers in consumer research. We're big believers in getting out and talking to the team members and talking with our customers, whether that's on the retail side of our business where we sell, uh, sliders in the grocery store or in our restaurants at the Drive-through or in the dining room. So for us, it's really about listening. And that might sound a little cliche, but we actively lean into it and treat it as a discipline and part of who we are. Um, our vision is feed the souls of Craver generations everywhere. You can't do that if you don't know what people are hungry for. So that's a, a constant focus for us and, and we learn and grow because needs and desires change as time goes on.DAMIAN (04:50):You mentioned, uh, adding a grocery business, uh, as well as delivery options. Could you talk a little bit about how the consumer data or leaning into that consumer data played a role in that decision and adding that delivery option for White Castle?JAMIE RICHARDSON (05:04):Absolutely. I think we saw that especially as hot and tasty, affordable food became more available through delivery partnerships. It's something we leaned into early. So hey, we're small in the grand scheme of things on the restaurant side, you know, we're a regional player, we have 342 restaurants, so we're not monolithic, we're not global, but in each of our neighborhoods, we want to be a big part of everyone's, uh, opportunity for great food. So when delivery came along, we quickly, uh, were able to forge great partnerships with all the different delivery partners, and we found our customers loved it. It was just one more way to be able to experience the crave, and they told us again and again, um, that that was something they wanted available to 'em. So it's great to be there 24 7, like most of our restaurants are, uh, having another option in terms of how to enjoy the food just seemed to make sense to us and we're really happy we jumped in when we did and we're continuing to grow and build that side of the business.DAMIAN (05:55):And, and you mentioned market research. What are the types of consumer demographics that you research, uh, on that crave continuum?JAMIE RICHARDSON (06:03):You know, that's interesting. Uh, the Crave continuum is something we created, uh, or discovered is probably a better way to say it. So we created language around it, but it, and in many ways it is taking the traditional demographics and psychographics so many of us lean into as marketers and putting it into the super collider and, and smashing it to bits and starting over. So we've been able to build it really around behaviors. So it isn't purely just the demographics. Um, for us it's about understanding two key things in terms of people's relationship to White Castle, their fandom and how frequently they visit us, so, uh, or purchase in the grocery store. So from that lens, we're able to understand where people are at in the continuum from crave cautious at one end for those souls we haven't connected to yet, but we will someday to crave committed at the other end of the spectrum with crave curious and crave casual in between. So it's been a really rich way for us to explore messaging. It's been a really rich way for us to explore media with all of our different agency partners in terms of how to get the, the right messages to the right people at the right time.ILYSE (07:06):Speaking about what you call Cravers and the fandom around that, um, you've created really this whole culture around it. What is White Castle doing to continue to support and market this culture and why is it important for a brand to have such a culture anyway?JAMIE RICHARDSON (07:23):Well, I think purpose is what it all comes down to. So, uh, if you know why it exists, it makes it a lot more fun to invest your time and energy and talent, uh, towards creating something that's meant to last that's meaningful. And when, um, we discovered the strong emotional connection so many have with White Castle, we realized that that was gold. That you can, you can spend a lot of money, can come up with a lot of great ideas and things that look good on the chalkboard, but when you have something like that, that's such a great attribute to be able to connect with people in that way. So I think around that idea of craving, we understood there's language that unlocked how so many people felt. And um, as I mentioned earlier, that listening part really played a role in that. So we literally hired a trained psychologist to interview some of our biggest fans and over and over and over again, one word, um, you know, was, was echoed and it was, I get a certain craving for him, I crave 'em late at night, I crave 'em at breakfast. And, um, including one gentleman who told a story about taking white castles on an airplane, and then he named one of our competitors, I won't say their name, and he said, you never see anyone carrying that brand onto an airplane now, do you? right. People love White Castle. Is that right? That told us we were in the right direction.DAMIAN (08:38):You know, we talk about meeting people where they are and when it comes to this younger generation, often they're, you know, across social media. How are you kind of, uh, thinking about your campaigns across all these different platforms that young people, you know, are looking at exploring, even gaming? Are any of those channels places where White Castle campaigns are kind of prominent?JAMIE RICHARDSON (08:56):I think primarily it's, uh, the notion that we wanna be as distinctive and as individualistic as this next generation of consumers is going to be and already is. And so for us it's just knowing the, the place you're at. So don't try and make one size fits all, so don't try and take something that you posted on Facebook and turn it into a TikTok. Um, you know, do it in a way that meets, uh, the viewer's expectations that provides engagement and candidly entertainment, if you will. Uh, you know, having fun with it. We are just, um, in the midst of a really cool recipe contest where Adam Richmond, the food beast, is serving as one of the judges and, uh, encouraging people to have fun with the food. And it's not a selling message, it's an engagement message. And I think that part of it is really essential in terms of how you make those connections and make, make 'em authentic.DAMIAN (09:45):I like that distinction. It's not a selling message, it's an engagement message that, that's interesting. IILYSE (09:49):Also know that White Castle locations and how those are run play a big factor in creating a good business. White Castle founder Billy Ingram said, I believe happy employees make happy customers. Can you talk a little bit about that?JAMIE RICHARDSON (10:04):So we are so fortunate as a family owned business to have so many of our 10,000 team members who are really, uh, in it for the long haul. In fact, more than one in four have been with White Castle 10 years or more. And among our general managers for the restaurants, the average tenure is 21 years. Uh, so I think a few people retired last year, so we had a turnover rate of 3%. But it's really, really cool to see that engagement and that focus to the point where for the third year in a row, we've been certified as a great place to work. We're the only fast food and food manufacturing business that's on that list. So it's really an honor and tough demanding circumstances to know we're there with our team members in lockstep to help satisfy the crave any way we can every single day of the year.DAMIAN (10:46):I wanna ask you a little bit about the kind of nostalgic feel that White Castle has kind of created and especially for different generations and how you think about the different generations when it comes to your marketing. Yeah,JAMIE RICHARDSON (10:58):I think for us it's really about constancy of purpose. So we, we don't run away from the word nostalgia, but rather than it being evocative of times past, we want it to be in present tense. We want it to be something where that emotional reward is just as present today, even if it takes slightly different form than it did earlier. A big part of that is the great value we provide in so many ways. In 1927, we were the first restaurant chain to say, Hey, what if you came in and picked up your food and took it home? So we were the first restaurant that we've ever found that was offering carryout, and we started doing that by selling 'em by the sack. So you could get each individual hamburger in its own little carton and a sack of 10 Togo. And later on that led to the Crave Case and then the Crave Crate, and then, uh, for a brief time the Crave Palette. But you know, it took us a little longer to make 7,000 Burgers than we thought. So that's no longer on the menu, but if you, if you call us, we'll take good care of you.DAMIAN (11:52):But you've also now launched a campaign called Micro Castle that promotes the idea that anyone with a microwave can have their White Castle at home thanks to the burgers in grocery stores. Could you talk a little bit how that came to be the strategy behind promoting buying sliders at grocery stores over the physical retail locations?JAMIE RICHARDSON (12:10):Absolutely. So it's so much fun because it's another great story about listening. So our third generation leader, uh, and CEO, bill Ingram visited every restaurant every year. And in one of his visits in a New York Castle, he saw a person like literally leaving with four acts of 10. So he just wandered over and said hello and said, oh, are you off to a party? Are you, he goes, oh, no, no, no, no, I put these in my freezer. And then Bill leaned in, so what do you do with them in your freezer? He said, oh, I've got a new appliance that I use to reheat 'em. It's called the Microwave Oven . And, uh, and so Bill thought, Hmm, you know, people are microwaving our sliders. Maybe we could sell 'em through the grocery store. And it's a fun story because I won't mention their names, but he approached three well-known global manufacturers and said, Hey, would you like to, we'll license this to you? And they all kinda laughed at him and said, no one will ever buy fast food from a grocery store. So thankfully he wasn't discouraged, but, but, uh, we did it ourselves. And so today we have three dedicated frozen food plants and that, uh, side of our business, our CPG business is 30% of our revenue, a bigger percent of our profit, and it's growing by leaps and bounds. We just, uh, doubled the size of our plant and vandalia to keep up and it's really fun that people can enjoy that flavor and taste. That'sILYSE (13:20):Awesome. With all that growth though, there's always some challenges going on, especially in the fast food business. What would you say are some of the, the main challenges that you run into?JAMIE RICHARDSON (13:31):I think there's some challenges that are universal. Um, you know, these days more than ever, everyone's trying to work through this moment in time. It's been a crazy four years as we all know, and I think there's still some kind of trying to understanding what's a new normal look like. Um, we've gone beyond supply shortages that seems to have sorted itself out. Labor shortage today isn't as bad as it was a year ago. Um, so many of us on the restaurant hospitality side of things face the same challenges on the CPG side of things. Uh, food costs and inflation are real and trying to maintain that value for consumers who are shopping is real for us. We have distinctive challenges because it's a, a strengthen and an opportunity and the strength is we're small and family owned. The opportunity is we compete against some of the world's biggest brands and being able to stay relevant means we can't spend as much money. We have to think more creatively and try new things and, and connect that wayILYSE (14:31):On that. Are there any emerging, like channels you're experimenting in or campaigns that you're trying out for the first time?JAMIE RICHARDSON (14:38):I think for us, um, finding new ways to connect with people and manage expectations is something that's so important because we think expectations are gonna continue to look for even faster service, even greater quality and even more accessibility. So our delivery partnerships are great. Our mobile app has continued to grow and we're involved in a major effort right now to revamp and, and relaunch our, our mobile app because we know, um, staying current there is essential to success. So, um, and then when it comes to campaign, we're constantly evolving and modifying and, uh, making the message even more informed and better connected. So with the Crave Continuum as the platform, um, that's something we're leaning into to talk to those different audiences in in ways that matter. We did a really fun local campaign that was what we call brand unified for our restaurants and our, our CPG business where, uh, roller skating, uh, is the place to be, you know, roller skating's back just like vinyl has been. And, uh, so we, we partnered with some, some skating centers and um, you know, fed a lot of people, a ton of sliders, but also had some fun social content that came out of that as well. So I think for us it's always trying new things and, and being open to the learning we get as we go.DAMIAN (15:52):You mentioned roller skating, which is interesting, which brings to mind, you know, other sports. I'm wondering what White Castle's relationship is to sports, uh, and live sports. Well,JAMIE RICHARDSON (16:02):We are a group of people who have a Super Bowl ambitions, but, uh, you know, much smaller budget. So we are so fortunate to have two great sports partnerships. Uh, one is with USA luge and so, uh, white Castle's the official sponsor of their search for, for luge athletes. Um, the athletes in luge are called sliders, so there's a nice fit there and we've been partners for six years now. Yeah, it's really fun. And uh, you know, we cheer on team USA every four years as they go off to the Olympics, but that's something we get to do fun along the way that encourages youth participation and helps them find the future Olympians as they go around the country. Um, and then just recently we announced a really fun partnership with Major League Pickleball and our local Columbus, Ohio team, which used to be called the Columbus Pickleball Club, has changed its name. They are now the Columbus Sliders and we are cheering them onto victory as they go. So, um, but pickleball is on the rise, and so we find that's a fun, affordable way for us to connect. And I'll tell you that the kids in America are discovering pickleball and it's gonna be big. So we try to catch a rising star whenever we can. And both those opportunities have been huge and a lot of fun for us.DAMIAN (17:17):And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.ILYSE (17:21):The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.DAMIAN (17:31):And remember, weJAMIE RICHARDSON (17:32):Don't run away from the word nostalgia, but rather than it being evocative of times past, we want it to be in present tense. We want it to be something where that emotional reward is just as present today, even if it takes slightly different form than it did earlier. A big part of that is theDAMIAN (17:48):Great value we provide. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm Damian.ILYSE (18:01):I'm Ilyse.DAMIAN (18:01):And we'll see you next time. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.