In this eye-opening episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive into the shocking revelations about Earth for All, an international initiative linked to the Club of Rome and the United Nations. Malcolm exposes the organization's plan to reduce the number of childbirths on Earth by a staggering 81% by the year 2100. The couple discusses the UN's potential bias and the infiltration of key UN positions by individuals affiliated with Earth for All. They also explore the concept of "degrowth" and its implications for the global economy. Throughout the conversation, Malcolm and Simone grapple with the ethical dilemmas posed by such extreme population control measures and the consequences of imposing a singular worldview on diverse cultures.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Earth for All can trace its origins to the Club of Rome commissioned report, The Limits to Gross, published 50 years ago

They want to reduce the number of childbirths on Earth by about 81 percent by the year 2100 when compared to the current level. Oh,

Simone Collins: okay. That's a

Malcolm Collins: lot. So Sandra Dixon Deceave, co president, Of the club of Rome, an executive chair of earth for life also chaired the UN cop 26 world leader summit. So she is a key member in hosting major, not UN population stuff, mainstream UN stuff.

Like who, who does this group say is affiliated with them? So you get individuals like Anders Wilkman, assistant secretary general, the United Nations policy director under UNDP, 1995 to 1997. Or Janice. [00:01:00] Co chair of the UN International Resource Panel.

 My read from this, it's not that the UN is just like random actors of politically indoctrinated people. They are systemically in deeply infiltrated by a group attempting to reduce earth's population dramatically.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: You like conspiracies, don't you?

Look I am not a conspiratorially minded person, but I do

Malcolm Collins: like

Simone Collins: studying conspiracies.

Yeah, you collect them like Torsten collects rocks. Yes. But often from the skeptic perspective. And then you rub them on your face and you're

Malcolm Collins: like, ahhh. Yeah, one of our kids just loves rocks.

But I usually and historically have loved conspiracies from the perspective of the skeptic. So I am not one, like I, I generally am pretty hostile to most conspiracy theories.

I will say conspiracy theorists seem to be batting nine out of 10 recently. It's a little concerning to me. But within the pronatalist world. I have this unfortunate thing that sometimes I will see a [00:02:00] conspiracy theory and I will begin to dig into it and it is only a conspiracy theory and how it is structured, but all of the facts are true and that really bothers me.

One of the most recent that was brought to our attention by one of our guests, which I have to mention here, was a group called Population Connection. Which was previously called Zero Population Group and was founded by Paul Elric which trained over a hundred thousand teachers in America and Canada.

And the president of the org recently bragged about their education arm called Population Education, educating three million American and Canadian students a year. Which is stunning. When you're like, how do people come to these insane ideas? Because they are literally being brainwashed by organizations designed to brainwash them.

But it gets worse than that. So often Simone, you and I will be talking about things like [00:03:00] the United Nations. And we'll be like, Oh, the UN,

Simone Collins: they seem very biased when it comes to reporting population statistics. So normally we bring them up. in the context of, and even the UN admitted this about falling populations when they finally point out that their projections have not been met and things are going down fast.

Malcolm Collins: I had seen this bias and been like, They have a lot of progressive people working there or something. They must be, it's just regular progressive bias. Like I had really counted the, what the UN was doing is we just don't want to elevate the fact that this is happening because it could be used by racists or something like that.

I don't know. Like I generally, and if people have. Listen to my previous comments on this had a very charitable interpretation of what they were doing. That charitable interpretation Has recently changed so we need to go in to Have you heard of something called the club of rooms simone? [00:04:00]

Simone Collins: No sounds like All men on Twitter.

Malcolm Collins: So the club of Rome was a real organization. Many people try to connect it with nefarious groups, but they ran a study that determined that we needed to dramatically reduce the number of humans on earth. Oh, so was

Simone Collins: this around the time of the population bomb

Malcolm Collins: book? Yeah, it was. And I'll actually read a quote here, and this quote is from a company called Earth for All, and it describes this.

 Earth for All can trace its origins to the Club of Rome commissioned report, The Limits to Gross, published 50 years ago. Back then, scientists used early computer models to show that Earth's finite resources would eventually buckle under the weight of material consumption. This Earth for All, which people can find them at Earth for the letter, the number four, all, not life.

They have a plan so you can find on like their long term plan [00:05:00] saying what their plan is for Earth's population. They want to reduce the number of childbirths on Earth by about 81 percent by the year 2100 when compared to the current level. Oh,

Simone Collins: okay. That's a

Malcolm Collins: lot. That's a lot. In the next 75 years they want to reduce the number of children being born by 81% percent which actually I would argue they are so good.

 But yeah, they're actually on track to do that. In fact, guys. Yeah. Good job on destroying the human species gold

Simone Collins: star. At least someone's getting what they want, Malcolm, it's fine.

I want to give a quick shout out to the subset of Igor Chet.

Who tipped me off to this particular situation

Simone Collins: yeah, so

Malcolm Collins: here's the problem with this group. You can be like, okay, yeah, there was this group that apparently wanted to lower Earth's population by that much, but what does this have to do with the UN?

So Sandra Dixon Deceave, co president, Of the club [00:06:00] of Rome, an executive chair of earth for life also chaired the UN cop 26 world leader summit. So she is a key member in hosting major, not UN population stuff, mainstream UN stuff.

Simone Collins: People, And then you look at their

Malcolm Collins: website of who their members are, right?

Like who, who does this group say is affiliated with them? So you get individuals like Anders Wilkman, assistant secretary general, the United Nations policy director under UNDP, 1995 to 1997. Or Janice. Co chair of the UN International Resource Panel.

An organization that stated goal

Is to erase, I [00:07:00] just, what are your thoughts? Like my read from this, it's not that the UN is just like random actors of politically indoctrinated people. They are systemically in deeply infiltrated by a group attempting to reduce earth's population dramatically. This feels

Simone Collins: very intuitive to me.

And here's why. Ever since I had kids, something happened to me hormonally where I can't really handle human suffering or poverty the same way as before, especially if this is happening to young children or babies. Like I, I lose my s**t. I'm not thinking about it now because if I were, I would be crying and I wouldn't stop and we have things to do.

I think this makes a lot of sense to me because the UN is involved in a lot of aid programs. It's seeing a lot of areas where there are massive numbers of very young people who are struggling and people of all ages who are struggling and suffering a lot. And I definitely, after a five hour crying jag, thinking about this stuff I am [00:08:00] like, I just wish I just, I want to undo all humans.

I just want to I totally get the feeling. I want to a hundred percent get the feeling when you are confronted by that kind of suffering and unmoored from logic, because obviously these people, most of them, even if they're suffering, want to be born, the suffering is part of the human condition. It is inevitable at people, that, there's a reason, you Anyway, when you're run by logic, you can deal with this.

When you're not run by logic and often you cannot be run by logic when you are face to face dealing with these issues, with these tragedies, with this suffering, I could totally see why the UN would shift to being an inherently antinatalist organization. that sees that one of the most expedient ways to end this suffering is to ensure that there just are fewer people brought into these situations.

Because one, the more, the fewer they there are, perhaps the more resources and two, at least that's, like five fewer babies they're [00:09:00] hearing about dying every day or whatever in some village. I get it. It makes a lot of sense to me. I don't see it as coming from a bad or evil place.

Although, of course, when you aren't thinking about what they're thinking, you think it does. So let's not dehumanize these people. I just, in the end, They're not thinking through it logically. They're being run by their emotions and they're wrong. But still, let's,

Malcolm Collins: does this change how you think about engaging the UN on these sorts of issues?

Do you see them as being an intrinsically antagonistic organization to the perinatalist

Simone Collins: movement? They're not because again, the perinatalist movement that, that we're a part of at least isn't against Avoiding unwanted pregnancies, avoiding people having kids that they don't want, that can't.

But that's not

Malcolm Collins: what these groups want.

That's what I'm hearing when I read this. They, if you read their website okay, hold on, I can just pull up what Earth for Life says on their own website. Okay. Or you can Google this and read it, okay? The dominant economic model is destabilizing societies on the planet.

It is time for [00:10:00] change. Earth for All is an international initiative to accelerate the systems change we need for an equitable future on a finite planet. We found that the next 10 years must see the fastest economic transformation in history if we want to steer humanity away from social and ecological catastrophe.

So

Simone Collins: they're social catastrophe. What am I telling you about? I'm telling you about the death and the suffering and the sickness that people are seeing. And they see that as a social catastrophe and they want to steer away from it. And yes, they care about the environment too. And they see human load as being a big problem on that.

What am I missing?

Malcolm Collins: This is they're stating two things, okay. They want to decrease the global population at the same time as increasing their control over that population. Yeah,

Simone Collins: because they think they know best. And I, I think people who are involved in dealing with these things firsthand or adjacent to those involved in dealing with these things firsthand believe that they have the authority to make the best changes.

Is that true? [00:11:00] Often not. You see this in many ossified industries. All over the place, for example, in the travel industry where we work. Oh my God, the people within it are so myopic and they're not able to see giant solutions, staring them right in the face. And that's a problem. So I'm not saying that just because they're close to the problem, they know what the best solutions are, but I am saying that of course, given their position, they're going think they're the best person and they're going to think that everyone else with different opinions is inexperienced, not actually on the ground dealing with what they're dealing with and

Malcolm Collins: wrong.

I guess the problem that I have with your perspective on this is I don't disagree that everyone sees themselves as a protagonist of their life story. That is true. That doesn't mean I need to have empathy for the actions that they are undertaking. The Nazis believed they were protagonists of their own story.

That is true. When an individual believes that their moral system is intrinsically superior to all other moral systems, and therefore must be imposed on other individuals. So this [00:12:00] is why, like, when I look at history, when I look at my ancestors, when I look at America in a historical context, why was To me, like America, the good guys in World War II, because after they won and everyone got together, they all thought that America was going to, basically lord over them.

They thought that America was going to say now that we won, we're basically going to impose our rules on all of the rest of you. We're going to take this land from you. We're going to take these economic resources from you. And instead they said, no, let's create a better system that allows everyone To work independently and yet as part of a global economic system.

That's what the pronatalist movement is fundamentally trying to do. We are fundamentally trying to create a world that is similar to the world that America attempted to create after World War II, which was a world of. Of decentralized global cooperation instead of globalism, which is centralized global bureaucracy.

[00:13:00] And that world is not just more productive, but it allows every cultural group to live out to the best of their ability, their own potentiality. These groups like Earth for All, want to quash that. They want a world in which people who are like them control everything. And they want a world in which people like them can influence who gets to be born and who doesn't get to be born.

If you look at their efforts, they are focused on Actually, one of the really interesting things about their efforts Is if you look at where they think population rates are going to fall, they plot countries like Japan as not having any population fall at all. And America is not having any major population fall is all, but most of the black and Hispanic countries making up the decrease in population.

They even have a racist plan towards [00:14:00] population.

Simone Collins: That is weird. I'm again, I just want to argue. that it is helpful to view groups who disagree with you empathetically, because the only way that you can begin to engage is by first finding common ground and seeing where you are aligned and then working out the tactical differences where you might each be getting something wrong.

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. This reminds me too much. I, I. Look, when I look at world history,

Simone Collins: I'm constantly

Malcolm Collins: reminded of the mistakes that people made historically. Yeah. And I look at things This

Simone Collins: is not appeasement. This is not Warning.

Malcolm Collins: It is appeasement. It's let's compromise. Okay.

They've taken their

Simone Collins: step. No. I'm not saying compromise. I'm not saying appease. I am saying engage with them. What did, some of the worst groups and the worst mistakes that have been repeated throughout history involve dehumanization of other groups and involve not engaging, just framing them in a very unflattering light.

And [00:15:00] not even trying to resolve problems through engagement. I'm not saying we even have to budge on our beliefs or policies. I'm just saying you're far less likely to be a convincing force when you. Immediately piss off the other side or dehumanize them. We are too autistic and, or weird to care that a lot of people that we'd love to convince hate us because we have glasses that are too big.

But I don't care that they think that about me, I'm still happy to talk with them, but most people, if you walked up to them and you were like, Oh, your face is so messed up, they're not going to listen to you anymore. And we're doing the equivalent of that by trying to, dehumanize and frame as monsters these other groups where I feel like they really are coming from a misguided place, but a place that, That means well, because again, I'm there after my five hour crying jags of realizing how much suffering people are going through [00:16:00] in areas where there are really high rates of fertility

Malcolm Collins: due to poverty.

We can talk about some of the other things they're talking about here. One of the ways they want to reduce fertility rates is by empowering winemen, of course. They're not wrong. I thought

Simone Collins: you said wine men, and I was like,

Malcolm Collins: My empowering women, the

Simone Collins: vendors need more. Don't you

Malcolm Collins: understand?

Another thing they're really pro is degrowth. Okay. So it's an,

Simone Collins: yeah, like that, that how everything like environmentalism and all these other progressive Subjects somehow fall into socialism and Marxism, right? They

Malcolm Collins: want to reduce the economic capacity of the world. That's what degross

Simone Collins: means.

Yeah. Go back to,

Malcolm Collins: Foraging in the field. As a quote from their website, Academia is alive with fiery debates about economic growth. Is green growth possible? Is D growth possible. What about steady state economies? Let's go beyond growth. What a Borrellian term

Simone Collins: that is. [00:17:00] Hey, this is a very popular and pervasive trend.

This is quiet quitting. This is Marxism. This is herkel derkel. This is bed rot. This is the soft life. Here

Malcolm Collins: I'm going to, I'm going to quote what they have gotten into the world economic forum. So the world economic forum posted an article called D gross. What's behind the economic theory and does it matter right now?

D gross is a radical economic theory born in the 1970s. This is from the world economic forum article. It broadly means shrinking rather than growing economies to use less of the world's dwindling resources. Supporters argue that DeGrosse doesn't mean, quote, living in caves with candles, end quote, but just living a bit more simply.

They're like, we just want the poor to starve. But us, the economic elite no, of course, they would say no, what we mean is the economic elite need to live with a little bit less. And it's but you. Are the economic elite and they're like we need more. People need to be the [00:18:00] economic elite.

How can that happen in your degrow system? There's societies that try to distribute wealth more fairly, almost always the lead to less economic productivity, which ends up eating in the more fair system. Those at the bottom of it, living with in lower material conditions. But when you go to a certain level of poverty and material conditions, that means starvation and death.

That's what we've seen over and over again throughout human history. That's why we don't do this. But, what are your thoughts on degrowth as a world strategy?

Simone Collins: Again, I think it's incredibly misguided. And again, it's why I hate the book, Sapiens, because I feel like that was one of the First big books that popularized this concept very subtly among intellectual, educated, and otherwise highly economically productive.

Explain what you mean by that. The book Sapiens really implies that humans were just so much better off before agriculture, which just [00:19:00] ruined. teeth and our lifestyles. And Oh my gosh, before this whole hunter gatherer thing was so relaxed and we basically never worked at all in life was perfect and we didn't die with bacteria rotting our face.

So that's silly. Don't think about that right now. We're good. You're going to talk about picking berries in the field. Okay. It's fun. So yeah, a lot of people read that it was framed and written as a book that really. Achieved high achievement people would love to use to brag about how smart they were and how above the grind they were now because they understood how unnatural it was to be in a human civilization after the, in the advent of agriculture.

And yeah, so before even all these various political groups wanted to enact Marxist policies you had on In this other facet of progressive elite culture these people who are already inclined to it and then they hear Marxist ideas and they hear ideas [00:20:00] about degrowth and they're like, Oh yeah.

And let's get rid of agriculture too. You guys, that would be great. I read this book. By the way, have you read sapiens? I've read sapiens. I'm very, this was good. Is agriculture

Malcolm Collins: ever done? Us? Can't people just get their food from

Simone Collins: ruins your teeth. I read it in a book that is so intellectual.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. I get all of my food from organic mushrooms that are picked in the wild.

Simone Collins: My forage for my food. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: How, why are we feeding? Homeless people, industrially grown food.

Simone Collins: Let them eat raspberries. That's what they say. Like I do on my estate. On my, yes. They can just pick it up off the ground.

Malcolm Collins: Don't they know it grows naturally? The gardeners always keep it tended.

Simone Collins: The, yeah, the naturally occurring migrant workers.

They're

Malcolm Collins: natural. They're organic. They talk about it in some of our other episodes. They're like, yeah we've got to keep our flow of [00:21:00] migrant workers or we won't be able to afford our lifestyle anymore if we don't have a permanent economic underclass to feed us.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But again I continue to argue that I think this all comes from a good place and people's hearts where they're just misguided and.

Malcolm Collins: And the point I'm meeting is the most evil acts can come from a good place in a person's heart. Yes. Yes. That I agree with. I need to look at the prism. When I'm deciding if someone is evil, I'm not looking at that whether or not they believe they're a good person or their actions are driven by the goal of reducing suffering.

Look, the antinatalists Ephalus who want to, as they say, Venus the planet, destroy all life. Not just human life, all life on the planet. They are motivated by a desire to reduce suffering. You could say that's a good desire, yet they're, what they take from that is obviously evil. When you look at people like [00:22:00] the Columbine shooters and stuff like that, and you read like their manifesto, their goal was reducing suffer.

If you look at the Unabomber, his goal was reducing suffering. Okay. When you are categorizing into evil and not evil people whether or not they are motivated by the reduction of suffering in the world is not how you make that categorization. That's fair. It's whether or not they are okay with a world in which other people are allowed to live in accordance with their own moral cores and value systems and do the systems they want to promote allow for, because, the, in this world, like if the world is structured in a way that is is realistic, and this is one thing I love.

About Starship Troopers, another line I love from Starship Troopers, right?

Figuring things out for yourself is the only freedom anyone really has. Use that freedom. Make up your own [00:23:00] mind.

Malcolm Collins: Where it's like the only freedom we really get in life is deciding what we want to do. and deciding what's right and what's wrong ourselves. And that is only because we live in a broadly good society right now.

Individuals who want to move into a world where that isn't the case, where people cannot decide their own perspective on reality, where people don't get to make their own choices about what a man and a woman is, whether that's the far right perspective where they want to erase things like the trans identity or the far left perspective where they want to force.

Trans acceptance. on individuals who simply have come from cultural groups that ancestrally have different gender constructs in that in different relation to the way people relate to gender or sexuality. Both of those are equally evil. And so when I see something like this and I'm judging it as evil, I'm not doing it because I think that they're the bad guys.

Or because they're [00:24:00] motivated to hurt people. I don't think they're motivated by a mean spirited reason, but when somebody like, when you're implementing the Great Leap Forward in China, which ended up, depending on the numbers you're looking at, killing more people in five years and died in the entire American slave trade.

Do you say those people are evil because they didn't think about the consequences of their actions? We can say, Oh it wasn't motivated by outright maliciousness, but a lot of people during the slave trade said we're bringing these people, Christianity and we're bringing them civilization.

And how is that so dissimilar from. The people in schools now who are taking people's children's from them and saying you, now that they are part of our cultural group and they relate to gender differently, we need to take them from their birth family. We need to raise them within our group.

And then you point out to them and you're like you actually you're getting them. On a regime of medicine that they're going to have to pay for the rest of their life, you haven't properly given them a background. That's going to allow them to afford that [00:25:00] you are dooming them to destitution and living off of either the charity of groups that you control.

And that's under groups you control or off of state systems. And they're like we don't care. Like they don't care about the damage, or they don't, they're unwilling to conceptualize the damage. I don't know. Like you would say they don't see any of this because they see the world in more of an aesthetic sense than like a logical, if this or an

Simone Collins: emotional sense.

And yeah, no, I agree with you. We, yeah, people, everyone's doing the best they can with the information they have. Sometimes the things are horrific and terrible and extremely damaging. So you can't just, let someone do whatever they're going to do because they think it's for the best, but they're thinking the same thing about.

Malcolm Collins: No, everyone's doing the best they can with the information they have. Then what genuinely differentiates the people who choose a world of freedom, the people who are able to say that my moral [00:26:00] framework is not something I should impose on

Simone Collins: other people. And see that's the thing is in this world in which, people are wrong and people are different.

The groups that decide to impose their view on everyone unilaterally are. The closest to evil that I can imagine because they have to, you have to have the intellectual humility to admit that you might be wrong, right? That's the key thing. What

Malcolm Collins: makes them like this? I guess is my question. Given the way that you structure things.

What I mean,

Simone Collins: I think a lot of it's culture. It's a big cultural thing. to say if what do you do when other people are doing the wrong thing or how do you deal with reality or being right or wrong? I think that don't you think it's culture?

Malcolm Collins: No, I don't. I don't think if I had been born into one of their families was whatever it is.

My, my. genetic predilections or something like that. I would never go along with this.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I guess you're so anti authoritarian. Yeah. But then I don't know, I feel like maybe there are some people who are both [00:27:00] anti authoritarian who could never go along with someone else's rule. Who also would be happy to rule over everyone themselves.

And I think it comes down to culture. It comes down to, um, giving people the right to make their own decisions if they want to opt out of whatever your system is. I don't see that's too nuanced to me. to be genetic. Maybe I'm wrong.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. So then you'd think that what leads them down the path of evil is that they were born into evil cultural groups.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: And or exposed to them. This is

Malcolm Collins: something you were to, you grew up in those groups and you hadn't gone down this path. I

Simone Collins: know. No. The progressive culture in which I grew up and maybe this is a time thing was actually very different, was very live or let live. Okay. We're not going to tell you how to live.

I'm not going to tell you how to live. You don't tell me how to live. It was extremely laissez faire.

Okay. [00:28:00] So I'm still adhering to that element of my upbringing and my culture.

Malcolm Collins: So the systems that they're putting in place, but they would argue that the systems they're putting in place are live and let live. They just want to reduce the world's population by, 81%. They want to do this through things like empowering women, but the consequences that all of this is going to have are extreme.

So it's they're don't even fall into the bad guy category because they're removing rights from other people. They fall into it from the consequences that will come up, the decisions they're making. Yeah. Do you hold them responsible for that? Or do you just say that most people don't think through the consequences of the decisions they make?

Simone Collins: I think, yeah and people should be held responsible for that. But I, again, as you point this out frequently in the governance book, people are subject to the incentives of whatever system they're in and our governing systems, the UN, et cetera, all of these organizations are not rewarded. For long term [00:29:00] oriented behavior, they are rewarded for behavior that makes people, voters, donors, et cetera, feel good in the moment.

And I think again when I go back to the emotionally motivated antinatalist feelings that I can relate to long term thinking. Doesn't make the tears go away. So I, I think it's also an adverse incentives issue.

Malcolm Collins: I suppose that makes sense. All right. I love you, Simone. And I appreciate that you are you are why you are always this family's moral center.

Simone Collins: No. Because I'm clearly more emotional here. You

Malcolm Collins: are the stalwart queen.

Simone Collins: I do the work. Okay. I let me just get the work done. You make the decisions, you do the strategy, you do the analysis and together I think we'll make good decisions. So I think we're a good combo, but you need both of us. You need someone to say, I'm putting my foot down.

This is ethically wrong. [00:30:00] And you need someone to slow down the process to make sure that everything has been considered. So between the two of us, I think we'll be all right. I love you to death Simone. I love you too, gorgeous.

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