(I was a bit under the weather when we recorded this, so apologies if my voice is a bit scratchy) Ukrainian Govt MP and Head of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, Maria Mezentseva, joined me to discuss the latest in the continuing conflict between Ukraine and Russia. We discuss the 2014 annexation, the Donbas region, Russian speakers and a human rights approach. Maria talks about a strong and successful Ukraine as a deterrent to Russian territorial claims and why she feels that NATO expansion, if it happens, is something the majority in Ukraine would support. (Note: Maria was at a military airport during this recording and while I was delighted to have this conversation as someone who is anti-war I found the whole thing disheartening.) Join us at patreon.com/tortoiseshack