How do we interact with Bitcoin in a multi layer world? What cost savings and trade offs are necessary here? What even counts as a layer? Kilian from boltz.exchange joins me to talk about swapping across Bitcoin on-chain, Lightning and Liquid. We discuss: How swapping works What makes it atomic and non-custodial What counts as layer 2 Fee savings and trade offs Links: X: @kilrau Site: boltz.exchange X: @boltzhq Taproot feature blog post: Introducing Taproot Swaps: Putting the "Fun" Back into Refunds!  Sponsors: Swan.com (code LIVERA) CoinKite.com (code LIVERA) Mempool.space Nomadcapitalist.com Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack Chapters/Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction and Background 03:07 - Boltz.exchange: Moving Between Bitcoin Layers 05:35 - Use Cases for Lightning Service Providers 09:45 - Enhancing Wallet Functionality 13:20 - Non-Custodial Atomic Swaps 21:43 - Coinkite.com 23:07 - NomadCapitalist.com 24:25 - Fees and Fee Savings 29:35 - Trust Model of Liquid 32:40 - Regulatory Risks for Liquid 37:10 - Transaction Limits on Liquid 38:58 - Mempool.space 39:59 - Swan.com 41:02 - Scalability of Liquid 44:15 - Integration of Liquid with Other Services and Wallets 51:22 - Pragmatism in Bitcoin Adoption 55:45 - Operating in a High-Fee Environment 57:45 - Closing Thoughts